shaolin monk in chicago? question for gene

[Immortal_Dragon]

the question was if yongxin's people are doing traditional gongfu, then where is that coming from? who teaches them? i dont see that answer around here.

LFJ, the answer plain and simple is that you will not find that.....and there are no texts or written documented lineages for Shaolin Temple . This is why modern Shaolin comes under scrutiny today. There are old temple monks that have been "seeded" around Shaolin each with their very own school turning out hundreds of students. There is just too many to keep a paper trail on. Names and places have literally gone up in smoke during Shaolin Temple's somewhat unstable history too. From my experience a lot seem to go by verbal lineage more than written over there.

i would beg to differ. there are older traditional masters living in the temple now, master shi deyang is an example. it is still very much a monastery. yongxin and those wushu people have just been using it. but it is still very much a monastery to those monks who continue the real tradition. its just quiet right now.

also, as shi deyang said each monk must learn buddhism. they can choose to learn gongfu or not. but if they do gongfu they must learn buddhism first and then they can train at the same time as studying. but then we had yongxin's wushu guy in germany talking about he only wants to do wushu and maybe learn about buddhism later. its obviously fake and has nothing to do with the real shaolin temple and tradition.

thats my point. the real tradition is there living in the temple underneath it all. what we see with the wushu guys and pureland monks is not shaolin's tradition. but every lotus flower that blossoms must come up through the muddy water. one day again, the real tradition will emerge. but for now, its quiet. not dormant or dead. just quiet.

Shi Deyang is correct. Monks who live and train at Shaolin must learn Buddhism while they are there. Thats the tradition. It kind of reminds me of Sunday school or a religious private school. It goes by the saying if you attend a private religious school then you must be basically educated in the religion whatever it may be so long as you are attending. Now once you move away or leave well then what you do is your choice. A young monk in Germany isn't going to learn the in and outs of Buddhism because he is more interested in wushu. Is that attitude the "ideal image" of a shaolin monk?, probaby not but I think that view point is common. It also does not rubber stamp him as being fake for believing that either. I think of "ex-monk" Li Peng when this is discussed. I read in one of his interviews where he said if he wanted to be a religious monk he would goto Thailand, Taiwan or some other location where straight Buddhist monasteries exist.

I understand what you are trying to say but the answer(s) are just complex and not simple. You ask a good question though.

[GeneChing]

There actually are some Shaolin lineages that have been preserved, but there's no master list. Deqian's Encyclopedia has a cursory lineage, but there are two major confounding factors with this. One is that some monks shift from being a monk to not being a monk. This is true for many Buddhist lineages. That means some one can be a monk for a short period - like many of the performance monks (or biaoyanseng). Does that grant them bragging rights? The other factor is that a genuine monk might leave the monastery and take civilian students outside the temple. These folk masters then bear 'authentic' Shaolin kung fu, perhaps without the Chan, perhaps with, and might be called back into the temple to teach young initiates. The notion of a paper trail is absurd within a Chan context. It's not about who has the title or who was who's teacher at all. It's about who has the dharma. For us, largely the uninitiated, dharma is an elusive thing (although arguably, it's a elusive for the initiated as well). Originally there is not a single thing. Where can dust alight?

[Shaolindynasty]

If you doubt it go see one in person

I did. I visited the chicago shaolin temple.

BTW, I am not critisizing anyone with my comments. I said they haven't shown anything martial. I never said they can't do anything martial.

[Immortal_Dragon]

I did. I visited the chicago shaolin temple.

BTW, I am not critisizing anyone with my comments. I said they haven't shown anything martial. I never said they can't do anything martial.

So that conclusion was based on one visit? I can see how you came to that. If I am understanding what you mean by "martial". I didn't see your comment as criticizing...just made me wonder what you thought wasn't martial. I think it takes more than a few visits to learn the "martial" side. Trust me I have personally seen people walk in some of these shaolin schools, watch the 18 basic warm ups, drills and forms, and turn around walk out and claim it wasn't shaolin....left me wondering what they thought was shaolin.

[Shaolindynasty]

So that conclusion was based on one visit?

I never drew any conclusion.

just made me wonder what you thought wasn't martial

Gymnastics. Skill? yes. Martial? no. Note: I am not reffering to modern wushu with this statement.

I think it takes more than a few visits to learn the "martial" side

Maybe it takes more than a few visits to "learn" it but to see evidence of martial practice is different. They have that evidence for instance on their flyers and class schedule there is talk of sanda and self defense. I simply haven't seen any of that demonstraited so I can't comment on it.

I only like to comment on things I either witness or experince first hand. So, that being the case, I can only comment on the "non-martial" exhibitions of their skills they've given.

Yet,
Just like I'm not going to assume a lack of martial(or fighting) skills, I am not going to assume they possess said skills

[Immortal_Dragon]

I only like to comment on things I either witness or experince first hand. So, that being the case, I can only comment on the "non-martial" exhibitions of their skills they've given.

Yet,
Just like I'm not going to assume a lack of martial(or fighting) skills, I am not going to assume they possess said skills

Agreed on the first part. I am kind of reading that you are taking a neutral stance on the issue. I am assuming since you said you visited Shi Yan Ju's that you observed a typical shaolin class. Arrived, saw the warm ups which could be considered "acrobatic", did some stretching drills, then came 18 basic postures, maybe a rest in between, depending on which day you went you probably saw them practicing some forms or some other specific activity, and the last thing was the final "amitoufo bow"...class ends. Kind of sort of right here or am I way off?

Can you share exactly what you saw at the Chicago school? Was Shi Yan Ju there and were you able to ask some questions? Is there anything that is preventing you from not taking a neutral stance? Just curious

[richard sloan]

It's not hard for the abbot to take one of Deyang's students and adopt him as a disciple. I don't know that this has happened for sure yet, but Deyang has several thousand students at his Dengfeng school and Deyang is not the only traditional monk still residing at Shaolin.

this has definitely happened. I don't remember the names, mainly because they switched into a new lineage with new names- which upset some people but what can you do- some of De Yang's people have shifted under SYX's wing so to speak I'm sure his line is not the only one.

a few years back there was some...complaint is the wrong word, let's say discussion, about all the pureland that was creeping in amongst some of the more ch'an people...now it seems that has started to percolate a little more, and it will be curious to see how that gets adjusted.

[GeneChing]

...that Shaolin is a work in progress. It's been so since it's inception. Many martial critics have based their opinions upon Shaolin a few years ago, or worse, on something some one else said about Shaolin a few years ago. But anyone who's actually been to Shaolin knows that it has completely changed since then and continues to change. That's part of what makes it so exciting. It's constantly changing. It ebbs and flows like the tide. So the people making snap judgments about what's happening at Shaolin - like the stereotypic 'it's all fake wushu monks' - are akin to the fool saying there are never tide pools based on observations made at high tide. Additionally, Shaolin is huge. It's hard to get your mind around 40,000 practitioners in a small mountain city. Do you really think that 40,000 practitioners can live together in that small pond and never fight?

[LFJ]

immortal_dragon:

you quoted me a few posts back, but those were not my words it seems. i think you've got the wrong man. and my view on the chicago guy is only an educated guess.

Deyang, along with many other traditional Shaolin monks, have yet to leave the temple in protest of Yongxin.

i wouldnt say it like that. deyang has not left because shaolin temple is his home! he is not staying there in protest. i would not say he is in any sort of protest at all.

I've seen Deyang himself performing at a Shaolin Demo that Yongxin was presiding over.

deyang acknowledges yongxin as the abbot, as he is. not to say that he is on level terms with him when it comes to certain directions. but he does not disrespect him. he is there to spread peace and shaolin culture as his duty.

but Deyang has several thousand students at his Dengfeng school

that may have been some time back, but since my last visit a few months ago there were only a couple hundred maybe, or fewer. unless the rest of them are all hiding somewhere else. but they arent at the school.

perhaps yongxin has already taken most of his students?

[GeneChing]

I didn't say that Deyang was staying in the temple in protest. I said the converse. Or is that the contrapositive? I always forget. My point is that while a lot of people vilify the abbot, there are still senior traditional monks residing within Shaolin Temple. Whether they agree with Yongxin or not is not the issue. Like you say, they acknowledge that he is the abbot and work with him.

Sorry to here Deyang's enrollment has dropped. He took a big hit after the relocation, but things seemed to be improving. His school is still at the southeast corner of Dengfeng, is it?

[LFJ]

i've found it common for some of those who "defend" masters like shi deyang to fabricate some sort of grudge he has with yongxin, which in my experience of him is not the case at all. that grudge is one those "defenders" have in their own hearts and just project that onto shi deyang and others. he's a completely free man, as far as i can sense.

as for his school, he's had the same for a while now at the enterence of the city. but the facilities are not too pleasing to the foreigner. especially those who are just getting used to the hole-in-the-ground "toilet" of china. his school has more of a ditch that gets cleaned out once a week.

i heard a story from one of the foreign students who had a real bonding moment with one of the coaches squatting next to each other there, when after the chinese isnt understood the coach pulls out a bowl of noodles and offers it to the guy while taking care of their business there together. lol

fun times! but on a less stinky note, shi deyang's students in italy have had a "coming soon" website for shi deyang's dengfeng school and have now got it up now after a year. www.shideyang.com

master deyang will be in italy over the christmas vacation for a few weeks, at which time he'll give his input on what he would like to have on the website. so check back for updates within the coming months!

peace!

[GeneChing]

A lot of people project their agenda on Deyang since he's so prominent internationally. It's a shame because he's a very complex person with his own opinions that seldom get heard. I haven't seen him personally in some time.

The last chance I got to interview him myself was for our 2004 Shaolin Special, see Shaolin Here and Now: Senior Monk Shi Deyang Contemplates the Mystery of Shaolin Zen. Back then, Deyang was very outspoken about not giving foreigners preferential treatment (re: making them crap in the PRC outhouse trenches). Personally, as a card-holding member of the Shaolin laowai club, I like the preferential treatment. I've done my time dealing with Shaolin potty issues (see the chapter Shaolin Disciple Xinghung in my Shaolin Trips Episode 3 e-zine article). My own master, Shi Decheng, just opened a separate school, just for foreigners. I can hardly wait to visit it.

In our latest Shaolin special (which I've nicknamed 2007B), Walter Gjergja compiled an article The Teachings of Shi Deyang based on his extensive interviews while hosting him in Europe.

[LFJ]

i've really got to trace back and find some of the older articles with shi deyang. its always so interesting when he opens up. he has a lot of other talents as well. but he's been in a lot of european magazines too. it would be almost impossible to look it all up.

in fact, that article by walter was published some time ago in a european magazine. he has that on his italian school website. he's also one of the guys running the website for deyang.

i have heard about shi decheng's new place for foreigners. unfortunately last time i went he wasnt in china until my last day so i skipped it. left it for next time. after all that training it is nice to have a decent place to sleep and good food to eat. i cant say i dont miss the american comforts when in china. not really culture shock. just that i like to have something to sit on when i'm in the restroom.

[GeneChing]

When I first went there in '95, life was pretty harsh. It's gotten better each year. We have some pics of Decheng's new foreigners hall in Shaolin 2007B. My understanding was that Gjergja's previous publication of that Deyang article was not in English. Is that so?

[LFJ]

i've seen some pictures of the new place posted on russbo and from friends who have gone there. life looks pretty pleasant compared to what i experienced sleeping with rats and sharing meals with spiders, and that ditch... but i have nothing against other forms of life.

if i remember correctly i think i saw walters publication in a foreign language european magazine, yet his article was written in english.