The demise of TMA

[Sal Canzonieri]

People have been saying this for a few thousand years.

So what.

Get off your chair and practice and train.

Go fight someone and test yourself.

It isn't the TCMA that is being tested, its your skills and your wits.
This is valid for TCMA, TJMA, TKMA, any TMA from any country, and for MMA.

How crappy you are or how great you are is not a reflection of the style, it is a reflection of your how efficient and effective your training is, and how you much you have tested yourself and learned from it.

People are called masters because they have mastered something, they put the time and effort into testing themselves and their material.

For sure, most people complaining, not all, have not mastered anything, or had the time to try.

[lkfmdc]

The obvious observation and point is that most TCMA schools aren't fielding fighters of any sort...

a place dedicated to San Da will have between 4 and 12 people getting ready to compete at any given time

Shuai Jiao students all "wrestle", many do stuff like judo also

a BJJ school will have it's students competing in BJJ tournaments

anyplace doing MMA has students competing

why is it when a TCMA school goes to a tournament, it's students do forms and not fighting?

you aren't saying that TCMA isn't about fighting are you? Seems you're saying the opposite, so then, why doesn't that ethic manifest itself in practice?

[GeneChing]

I hear the 'tradition is dying' argument all over this forum. Do you know where else I hear it? Historical references, some that date back centuries. When people complain that frauds are killing TMA, they are echoing what has already happened before. Hasn't anyone done research on this? Just considered what it must have been like for our ancestors attempting to preserve their tradition during the rise of the firearm. That's a thrilling part of martial history. Fakes arose left and right as military skills evolved into sport. They did made it obviously, or it wouldn't have reached the people that we all call masters today. So now, if you say 'tradition is dying', the only person to blame is yourself. What you're really saying is 'my tradition is dying because I'm too lame to pass it from my master to my juniors'. There have always been fake masters. There always will be fake masters. We've had fake masters for centuries. Can we learn to deal with fake masters already?

As for the other point 'real TMA is only about fighting', I agree and disagree. It depends how you define 'fighting.' If you define 'fighting' by street and ring fights, I disagree. Sure, that's important, but not the only fight. If you define 'fights' to include those personal challenges - disease, age, rehab and finding balance - then I'll agree. There was this guy I used to work out with - grossly overweight, diabetic, lives a horrible lifestyle - through his practice he's fighting just to reach a normal state of health. He was getting there, slowly, but after years of practice, he was still not very skilled. He had no real striking power and would crumple if hit with the slightest impact. But he was there, practicing regularly, and for him, kung fu was his redemption. It was his only shot at being healthy. For many, that's the ultimate battle. Inevitably, as we all grow older, we'll all face this. I lost track of that guy so I couldn't tell you if he made it or not. TMA has always provided for people like him. It's surely saved more lives with this application than through actual street self defense.

That all being said, from my odd post on the martial world, I see the traditional arts rising. There's more fakes for sure, but there's more traditional too. The bottom line is that there's more of everything. Martial culture had been growing steadily on all fronts. I truly believe that the future looks very bright for traditional martial arts right now. I just hope all you 'tradition is dying' folks don't delay that growth from all your bellyaching.

[TenTigers]

I can play volleyball, I can play chess,I can play guitar, and I can fight.
I can't play at the level of the Nike Beach Volleyball team.
I can't play as good as Bobby Fischer.
I can play guitar, but I'm no Joe Satriani
I can fight, but I'm no Chuck Liddel
so, evidently, I'm worthless.
But ya know what?
I have a decent serve, good set-ups, and the occaisional spike, and I have fun at picnics.
I enjoy setting up my strategies, and the focus and concentration that comes with being "in the game."
I get out and play in blues jams, and can pretty much wail if I get in a good groove. Working on putting out a cd and putting the band back together perhaps to tour locally.
I've defended myself when neccesary, and did a pretty good job of it. My students have done the same. I can hit fast and hard,throw,lock, and grapple, and I'm still learning. It hurts to be thrown again and again (at 50) and I limp into bed-with a smile on my face, cuz I'm having a great time.
So fek yizall

[sanjuro_ronin]

I can play volleyball, I can play chess,I can play guitar, and I can fight.
I can't play at the level of the Nike Beach Volleyball team.
I can't play as good as Bobby Fischer.
I can play guitar, but I'm no Joe Satriani
I can fight, but I'm no Chuck Liddel
so, evidently, I'm worthless.
But ya know what?
I have a decent serve, good set-ups, and the occaisional spike, and I have fun at picnics.
I enjoy setting up my strategies, and the focus and concentration that comes with being "in the game."
I get out and play in blues jams, and can pretty much wail if I get in a good groove. Working on putting out a cd and putting the band back together perhaps to tour locally.
I've defended myself when neccesary, and did a pretty good job of it. My students have done the same. I can hit fast and hard,throw,lock, and grapple, and I'm still learning. It hurts to be thrown again and again (at 50) and I limp into bed-with a smile on my face, cuz I'm having a great time.
So fek yizall

Interesting point.

The other day I was boxing and stepped into the ring with a 'kid" that was beginning to train for an up and comming fight, he is ranked #5 in Canada, LH.
He schooled me.
After the first 3 rounds, and while he was not "mine" for the first three, I did, as per his coach, Better than most pros in that gym.
Could I beat him?
Hell no, but its nice to be able to hang in there for a bit.

[lkfmdc]

As for the other point 'real TMA is only about fighting', I agree and disagree. It depends how you define 'fighting.' If you define 'fighting' by street and ring fights, I disagree. Sure, that's important, but not the only fight. If you define 'fights' to include those personal challenges - disease, age, rehab and finding balance - then I'll agree.

OK Gene, I'll bite (I might even photoshop later)....

While TCMA can be used to fight these other "fights" (personal challenges), they are most certaily also for the street, the ring, the cage etc

If we remove the street/ring/cage and just leave the personal challenges, aren't we just doing chi kung, aerobics with a twist, yoga or pilates??

Surely (Shirley), not everyone has to fight on a Lei Tai, but one has to wonder why NO ONE is

[sanjuro_ronin]

Not to play the old ****s card, but full contact COMPETITION is a young mans game and when I was young, boy did I play it and now, as an older individual I am paying the price and reaping some of the rewards still.
That said, I would be concerned why younger people in the combat arts AREN'T fighting as much as they can.

[lkfmdc]

Not to play the old ****s card, but full contact COMPETITION is a young mans game and when I was young, boy did I play it and now, as an older individual I am paying the price and reaping some of the rewards still.
That said, I would be concerned why younger people in the combat arts AREN'T fighting as much as they can.

I'm old, I have numerous injuries, I've survived cancer THREE TIMES, so my competition days are well behind me, even then I was a b-level amateur, but I did something. Today, not all my students fight, but about 10% does (around 20 students ready to fight at any given time)....

TCMA schools are full of young in shape people. They can do astounding forms performances, many are great gymnasts.... surely one or two students in a school could fight full contact, no?

[Shaolinlueb]

traditional martial arts isnt dead. i read an article saying its already dead, and that we have to promote health, morals, self defense from things other then people (corporations, mcdonalds), and peace. what the guy didnt realize, at least to me, these values are in traditonal martial arts. its just a new form of marketing.

tma will never demise as long as there are good teachers out there promoting the art and always adapting.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You'd think so....

Personally I don't get being part of a MA school or gym and NOT fighting, what's the point?

Is there anything as satisfying as kicking someone in the face? or getting hooked in the liver and puking?
I think not !!

[lkfmdc]

Here's a good measure of things

not everyone in my school fights, far from it.... but I DO have fighters here

but MORE IMPORTANTLY the stuff the fighters train, the techniques, the methods, etc the whole rest of the school trains exactly the same (different intensity levels for sure). When they go and watch a student from here fight, they see the same stance, same footwork, same attacks and same defense they are learning and practicing in class....

if not, there is somethng wrong

[Tai-Lik]

dude you didnt answer his points at all !

i thought it was obvious that i was trying to avoid a question by LKFMDC, which would side track the point of this thread into the same old discussions which have beaten to death.

So that it doesn't appear that i can't answer the quesiton or have something to hide, i will gladly answer LKFMDC's question. The anwers is all of the 100.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Here's a good measure of things

not everyone in my school fights, far from it.... but I DO have fighters here

but MORE IMPORTANTLY the stuff the fighters train, the techniques, the methods, etc the whole rest of the school trains exactly the same (different intensity levels for sure). When they go and watch a student from here fight, they see the same stance, same footwork, same attacks and same defense they are learning and practicing in class....

if not, there is somethng wrong

And I don't see why it would be any different anywhere else.
Fighters comprise a small percentage of the people that train in most gyms, more so nowadays ( aside ones that cater just to pro fighters).
The training and sparring should eb the same, heck a pro doesn't even go balls-to-the-walls every time, only ups the intensity when training for a fight, so they pretty much train and spar like everyone else, to a degree.

[lkfmdc]

i thought it was obvious that i was trying to avoid a questions by LKFMDC

it was embarassingly obvious, just like your ducking the issue of your own art

Do you think Jow Biu and Jow Lung considered themselves fighters?

Why did Dean Chin think full contact fighting was important enough that he took his students all the way to Taiwan to compete?

Why don't you offer any full contact at your tournament?

[Tai-Lik]

LKFMDC, lets not waste everyone's time or disrespect this forum with your punk a$$ comments

if you want to conversate or debate respectfully, i'm all for it. i hate to see good threads and conversation get off track. If you have a problem with that just pm me and i'll set up a time where we can a discussion face to face


LKFMDC wrote:

it was embarassingly obvious, just like your ducking the issue of your own art

Do you think Jow Biu and Jow Lung considered themselves fighters?

Why did Dean Chin think full contact fighting was important enough that he took his students all the way to Taiwan to compete?

Why don't you offer any full contact at your tournament?

okay this is where i didn't want this topic to go, lol.

Of course Jow Biu and Jow Lung considered themselves fighters.

My sifu supported full contact fighting and so do most of us from him. The topic of thread wasn't about full contact

we haven't offered full contact during our tournament for two simple reasons. one, INSURANCE. Two we wanted experience in running tournaments first. we have announced during our tournaments future full contact divisions.

The only thing embarrasing i see is you being a grown man and an allegedly experienced in martial artist, behaving like a child when other people come on this forum and make comments you disagree with

your hilarious man