Forms or Not Forms

[Shaolinlueb]

training applications alone without knowing a form is fine, you can do it. forms jsut connect different applications. and sometimes show things you cant see without knowing them.

plus when you have done an application did it turn out like it does in the form? probably not. there are too many variables to say it goes this way.

what CXW is saying is a good tool.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I would like to believe the moves in the forms do have direct applications that are exactly as they are performed in the form (not counting forms that are changed for appearances sake).

I look at it this way, the move has both direct, and indirect. The direct apps are very few for self explanatory reasons, and the indirect applications are much more varied becasue they are based on modifications of the core movement found in the form.

What are everyone's thoughts on this concept? How many of your form's techniques are directly applied in two man fighting? How many are indirectly applied through modifications of the form's moves to fit the situation?

[Black Jack II]

The question to really ask is what do you consider to be the litmus test for a application in your form to be applicable in fighting.

What is your proactive decision making method...?

Is the course of action used to analyze the application based just on the systems age, that because it is old then somehow it must be good, are you basing it on your teachers assumed fighting ability and not your own, or is the reasoning based on current and relevant testing?

I think to many people make their decision on what works and what may not work based often on romantic crushes and not objective thinking.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Well, I now know that many of the really, really ancient forms are mixes of emptyhand and weapons techniques in the same set...so many would be useless today because yo are not being attacked by a sword, but are still just as effective in regards to thier intended use as allways.

[rogue]

The question to really ask is what do you consider to be the litmus test for a application in your form to be applicable in fighting.

What is your proactive decision making method...?

Is the course of action used to analyze the application based just on the systems age, that because it is old then somehow it must be good, are you basing it on your teachers assumed fighting ability and not your own, or is the reasoning based on current and relevant testing?

I think to many people make their decision on what works and what may not work based often on romantic crushes and not objective thinking.

Goooooaaaaalllll!!!!

I've seen some crazy stuff come out of forms that win more on someones creativity than actually working. I find better applications for movements now that I've dropped doing kata and instead spending more time working live.

[kwaichang]

Forms = a book
Series within the form = chapter
multiple of say 3 technigues in a seguence in the form = paragraph
multiple of 1-2 techniques in the form = words
techniques from the form out of the sequence = letters x,z,r etcetra.

The form if trained with repetition ingraines the letters into the unconscious to be used at your leisure. Dont train the form and the essence of the technique is lost.And the words or paragraphs or chapters and the book is lost. KC

[rogue]

Oh poppycock. I hear this all of the time from the forms and kata crowd (of which I was one), but how do arts without forms somehow retain their techniques and somehow ingrain them into their practitioners?

[Christopher M]

Chen Xiao Wang has some amazing insight into movement (yes, a serious post for a minute anyway), so much so I wanted to do a seminar with him, the problem was of course that his "language" is the form... since I didn't want to have to learn the set, I sort of was at a loss of how to do the seminar...

You could do a seminar on zhan zhuang, silk reeling, pole shaking, or some other exercise other than the form.

[Christopher M]

I would like to believe the moves in the forms do have direct applications that are exactly as they are performed in the form... What are everyone's thoughts on this concept?

I think it's taking entirely the wrong approach to the problem. The question shouldn't be whether or not the moves in your form have applications, but rather whether doing forms is how you should be training applications. Any weird movement you can come up with at random probably has an application if you're imaginative enough about it. But that doesn't get you anywhere, it's just an imagination game.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I think it's taking entirely the wrong approach to the problem. The question shouldn't be whether or not the moves in your form have applications,


Reply]
Of course we should be focused on that. if the moves have no applications (say a set has been dressed up for artistic performance), then why bother with it?

but rather whether doing forms is how you should be training applications

Reply]
It's been established already that the form is not for training applications in actual use, but more for refining the body mechanics, or or keeping a catalog of a systems techniques in solo practice.

If I remember my history right, forms were developed as a way to tell if someone was trained in the Shaolin system or not. It was a diploma showing completion of your training. My guess is later they began to be used as a tool of refinement by those who were already graduates of a system. From what I can see, forms were traditionally taught last. what we see today is a much more recent thing, and not the traditional way of using forms.

So no, you can't train application usage with forms.

[MasterKiller]

Oh poppycock. I hear this all of the time from the forms and kata crowd (of which I was one), but how do arts without forms somehow retain their techniques and somehow ingrain them into their practitioners?

Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition Repetition

[lkfmdc]

You could do a seminar on zhan zhuang, silk reeling, pole shaking, or some other exercise other than the form.

In case I wasn't clear, the person who was going to host the seminar was very nice, very helpful and they patiently discussed stuff with me. I have no complaints. I was very welcome to attend, I just felt that it wasn't going to "work" for me. Again, no offense was intended to anyone involved

[Sal Canzonieri]

In case I wasn't clear, the person who was going to host the seminar was very nice, very helpful and they patiently discussed stuff with me. I have no complaints. I was very welcome to attend, I just felt that it wasn't going to "work" for me. Again, no offense was intended to anyone involved

He has an english subtitled DVD series of his seminars, iti is translated very well, subtle ideas are expressed well.
You should at least watch the DVD seminars.
What he says and shows applies to any style.

And, he shows the most coolest applications to situations, his helper goes flying!

And, he shows how movements are executed in the form (which he calls a frame - which makes total sense, it is a frame that the techniques hang on) and how they are instead done in real life and WHY they are done differently (cause people dont understand forms).

Also, he makes fun of some idiotic applications that some people use.

It was entirely worth every penny and was not expensive in any way.
A good supplement to one's experience, and a way to be at his seminar without being there or learning them forms.

I got it here:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Chen-XiaoWang-Ta...QQcmdZViewItem

[Black Jack II]

Again, what is the litmus test for forms to be a functional part of your self defense training?

When a person repeatedly works on training a movement, often in a focused effort to stimulate the mind's motor memory, the goal is to instill certain physiological changes.

But what if those repetitions, and here I speak of forms training, leads the mind's adaptation process down the wrong road and these physiological changes are more harmfull than helpfull?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

But what if those repetitions, and here I speak of forms training, leads the mind's adaptation process down the wrong road and these physiological changes are more harmfull than helpfull?

Reply]
Then you are doing some crap modern wushu form, and you should drop it for something that actually comes from a real martial environment.