Let's see the Cavemen

[YungChun]

In honor of T's revelation that all fighting WCK is Caveman WCK I thought I'd start a thread just for those brave Cavemen who are banging it out Caveman style... Ugh!

Let's keep in mind there are no shades of gray just black and white.. (so all these clips represent the same Caveman level)

I wonder if they all use Geico...Hmmm...

Here's new stuff form those crazy Astonians, I think..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XYSCEwCPaw

[YungChun]

And another..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIQgD2rvf18

Man gotta love that sound track..

[YungChun]

And some Hungarian Cavemen:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdIn4DJ0X1U

[YungChun]

Heading over to the West now...

Here go some Columbian Cavemen...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBrZ55sbY1Y

And of course our very own USA East Coast Cavers..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGFOJkZa1ic

And a new clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBrZ55sbY1Y

[t_niehoff]

It's great these guys actually spar with some real intensity, and I give them all the props for that. The problem is that they are not critically analyzing their performances -- asking themselves some important questions. And without that analysis, they just keep doing the same-old, same-old, never really improving. It's the same in BJJ, it's not *just* rolling (though rolling is critical) but rolling analytically.

A very big part of training like a fighter is learning to think (analyze) like a fighter. Some people are naturally better at this than others. But it can be, like most other things, learned and trained. To learn and train it requires that your instructor/trainer has that ability, and through his criticism of you, through his analysis of your performances, etc., you see what he is doing, and pick up how to do it for yourself.

A very big problem for the WCK/TMA brainwashed is that this analysis never takes place. They are guided by grandmasters, masters, sifus that tell them what they should be doing (according to their fantasy theory) when they can't do it themselves, they have cognitive dissonance and can't see objectively what is really happening but look at everything through rose-tinted glasses, etc.

[LoneTiger108]

A very big problem for the WCK/TMA brainwashed is that this analysis never takes place. They are guided by grandmasters, masters, sifus that tell them what they should be doing (according to their fantasy theory) when they can't do it themselves, they have cognitive dissonance and can't see objectively what is really happening but look at everything through rose-tinted glasses, etc.

I was going to leave this thread alone, but this quote really got to me lol!

I can only presume that the Grandmasters/Masters/Sifus that you mention all live in a fantasy world and that you yourself have had a bad experience of this kind in the past. Would this be true?

Because if you have never been a 'student', how can you make these mad presumptions?

I do really feel for you beacause I can see what you're saying only too clearly as I studied and trained Martial Arts to learn 'how to' teach and preserve what I saw. I had no interest in fighting whatsoever.

However, I do know that among these clips are very basic, low level students who can barely keep their composure under pressure, let alone demonstrate clean Wing Chun skills. But hey! Who am I to judge??

Come to think of it, who are you? And who is Yung Chun?

I'll leave you, or others more equipped with fighting experience, to answer...

[YungChun]

Come to think of it, who are you? And who is Yung Chun?

I'll leave you, or others more equipped with fighting experience, to answer...

I don't think you have the slightest idea what the context of this thread is about Tiger..

However, I do know that among these clips are very basic, low level students who can barely keep their composure under pressure, let alone demonstrate clean Wing Chun skills. But hey! Who am I to judge??

T...

You see you will find many a TCMA that agrees with your assesment in this matter.. What does that tell you?

[t_niehoff]

I was going to leave this thread alone, but this quote really got to me lol!

I can only presume that the Grandmasters/Masters/Sifus that you mention all live in a fantasy world and that you yourself have had a bad experience of this kind in the past. Would this be true?

No. I just came to realize that fighting skills come only from fighting, not from unrealsitic exercises. And since almost no one in the TMAs has much in the way of quality sparring, they can have very little in the way of skills.

If you believe some grandmaster, master, etd. has good fighting skills, just show us someevidence of them fighitng with good fighters.

Because if you have never been a 'student', how can you make these mad presumptions?

Because the training methods of TMAs can't produce good levels of skills. How do I know that? Because we knowfrom evidence (people who really can fihgt very, very well) and from science (studies of motor skill, sport, etc.) what sorts of training does produce significant gains in open skills.

I do really feel for you beacause I can see what you're saying only too clearly as I studied and trained Martial Arts to learn 'how to' teach and preserve what I saw. I had no interest in fighting whatsoever.

So what you learned to preserve is all fantasy stuff. Traditional jiujitsu is still being learned and preserved. None of them can grapple at asignificant level, none of them can compete with people who train in functional martial arts (arts that use functional training methods). But it is still being learned, preserved, etc. So is folk dancing.

However, I do know that among these clips are very basic, low level students who can barely keep their composure under pressure, let alone demonstrate clean Wing Chun skills. But hey! Who am I to judge??

And thegrandmasters, masters, etc. would do just as, if not more, poorly.

The truth can be found at your nearest MMA gym. Bring in a decent MMA fighter and see how grandmaster/master/sifu can do is sparring.

Come to think of it, who are you? And who is Yung Chun?

I'll leave you, or others more equipped with fighting experience, to answer...

Who do I have to be? Do I have to be a grandmaster with little to no skills? I'm just a student of the game who no longer buys into the delusion, the fantasy.

[LoneTiger108]

"I don't think you have the slightest idea what the context of this thread is about Tiger"

Why don't you explain this to me Yung Chun, as I'm sure other 'newbies' may also like to know!

"If you believe some grandmaster, master, etd. has good fighting skills, just show us someevidence of them fighitng with good fighters"

Yep! No probs. I'll just travel back in time with a DVD Camcorder lol! Be reasonable here as many older generations have had their fun and may not be willing to 'av it' at a local club these days. Once you hit fifty and have grandchildren you may think differently.

"The truth can be found at your nearest MMA gym."

This comment made me giggle the most as you speak of 'truth' lmao! What TRUTH? That what you're doing these days is no different to Chinas Martial History?? That you're no further down the road than Bruce Lee was in the seventies?? Once these fighters retire from the ring, undoubtably badly damaged, what will they do?

[anerlich]

I was going to leave this thread alone

You will wish that you had.

[t_niehoff]

""If you believe some grandmaster, master, etd. has good fighting skills, just show us someevidence of them fighitng with good fighters"

Yep! No probs. I'll just travel back in time with a DVD Camcorder lol! Be reasonable here as many older generations have had their fun and may not be willing to 'av it' at a local club these days. Once you hit fifty and have grandchildren you may think differently.
?

If we never see them fight, then how can we say they have any fighting skills? Because they talk a goodgame, because of stories, becuase they gave themselves titles, because they can demo or perform unrealistic exercises like chi sao well?

It's a question of evidence versus conjecture.

"The truth can be found at your nearest MMA gym."

This comment made me giggle the most as you speak of 'truth' lmao! What TRUTH? That what you're doing these days is no different to Chinas Martial History?? That you're no further down the road than Bruce Lee was in the seventies?? Once these fighters retire from the ring, undoubtably badly damaged, what will they do?

The truth about *your* level of skills, how well *your* training is working, etc. China's martial arts history is mainly myth and stories. I believed in the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, and Santa Claus too -- when I was a kid. As an adult, and someone who thinks critically, I don't believe things absent evidence.

I don't know what you mean by "no further down the road than Bruce Lee". Of course we are. People today know how to train better, have much better ideas of what is or is not functional (because we can see it for ourselves), the ground games have exploded, etc. Bruce was no doubt on the right track -- he realized the severe limitations of the traditional mindset and traditional methods of training, and approached his training from an athleltic, modern functional standpoint.

You rely on many of old-standbys of the TMAists, including how mondern, functional training methods will wreck your body. Hardly. Helio is 90 and still rolls. Is his body wrecked? Training athletically and functionally has just the opposite effect.

[Jeff Bussey]

Wait a minute, Santa isn't real?

Ha ha, first one to say it

[LoneTiger108]

You rely on many of old-standbys of the TMAists, including how mondern, functional training methods will wreck your body. Hardly. Helio is 90 and still rolls. Is his body wrecked? Training athletically and functionally has just the opposite effect.

Well I never!? You wouldn't be talking about Helio Gracie by any chance??? If this is a reference to BJJ, I must say that for once I agree with you!!

Sorry to state the obvious, but Helio can still roll at his age because of his own Traditional 'Family' style of fighting. This I know as I have had the pleasure of hosting a seminar with two prominent players in the Gracie camp and this is what they told me. Face to face. They both said something like this;

"Gracie BJJ is a Family Style of Jiu Jitsu, something that has grown from the Gracie Families involvement through the generations"

I think, well I know, I have already made this comparison to Wing Chun in another thread, as we too are a Family Style which has been developed and modernized through generations, and I believe that you have just assisted me in proving a point... Thank you!

Oh! And on the Bruce Lee front. Do you really think that he was pointing his finger at Wing Chun when he was quoted as saying 'Forms are a classical mess'? If you do, then I'm afraid that you also know nothing about Bruce Lee either. He was describing the efficiency and 'functionality' of Wing Chuns First Form, but I guess you don't believe that either considering he was Chinese too (well, Chinese-American)

Sod it! I may as well go all out here...

Any footage of Helio at 18-25 laying around on your training hall floor to prove that he can 'fight'? Or do you take Royces word for it?

[donbdc]

Hold on a minute, Lone Tiger. You yourself have admitted that you are no expert in Wing Chun, let alone BJJ. So if I were you, I would not let any individual's comments bait you into insulting a recognized martial arts pioneer and legend. Helio Gracie has proven himself time and time again (including on film as a young man, which you obviously haven't seen). And Royce Gracie is affiliated with CRCA through our King William, VA academy run by Johnny Simons, Jr. He and his team have won many titles throughout the USA using his particular blend of Gracie Jiu Jitsu and CRCA Wing Chun.

Regardless about how you feel about what any one person is saying about the style we love and dedicate ourselves to, it is wrong to be drawn into making the same mistakes as they do by echoing their bad martial arts etiquette.

[LoneTiger108]

Hold on a minute, Lone Tiger. You yourself have admitted that you are no expert in Wing Chun, let alone BJJ. So if I were you, I would not let any individual's comments bait you into insulting a recognized martial arts pioneer and legend.

Regardless about how you feel about what any one person is saying about the style we love and dedicate ourselves to, it is wrong to be drawn into making the same mistakes as they do by echoing their bad martial arts etiquette.

Mmmm. I must say donbdc, I'm hoping you will explain where I insulted a recognized 'martial arts pioneer and legend?' All I have done here is ask for the same evidence that has been asked of me and any Wing Chun practitioner. AND I was hoping that somebody would mentionthe Helio clips, as I had heard that something exists (so thanks for that), but been told that the clips were standard jiujitsu tournaments with NO striking. Please tell me how this proving you can 'fight'.

I meant no offence to the Gracie Family whatsoever, and I was only trying to highlight the similarities to our own Family style. I'm only trying to get T to think before he retaliates...