Judo Opinion?

Hey, all...

I'm posting this here, 'cuz I guess it kinda falls under the auspices of cross-training/absorbing what's useful...

I have no grappling skill whatsover, and the only place around that fits my schedule and budget (since I love my wing chun and don't want to curtail that at all) is a Judo club.

Any input on whether or not this art will give me a good grappling/groundwork foundation?

Thanks in advance!

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Peace.
Reverend Tim

[wisdom mind]

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[This message has been edited by wisdom mind (edited 05-12-2000).]

[Sihing73]

Hello.

My two cents if it's worth anything is to, of course, concentrate mainly on your Wing Chun. Having said that I would like to point out that Judo is an excellent choice to supplement your training. Judo will help with your sensitivity as you will learn all about balance, yours and your opponents. If your truly learn Judo then you will not rely on strength but will learn to feel your opponenets energy and how to change attacks based on that feeling. Kind of like a whole body chi sau [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

In any event I would say take Judo. You will get standing techniques as well as groundwork. All in all I can't see any detriment, but that's just me and I am biased having done Judo prior to Wing Chun. I will say that Wing Chun itself does contain grappling and anti-grappling so you do not need to look outside of the system for these things. Still, it is never a bad thing to gain exposure to other things.

Peace,

Dave

Sihing73,

I'm *definitely* planning on maintaining my level of dedication to wing chun. It's my true love...and I don't doubt that its grappling and anti-grappling techniques are plenty adequate.

It's just that my personal shortcomings on the ground are so profound that I really need to spend at least one whole workout a week focusing on it. From what I've been reading about judo, it seems like it would complement wing chun really well. Not only for the sensitivity and technique-over-strength reasons you state, but it seems that in its genesis, it was a distillation of jujitsu styles kind of like how wing chun was (theoretically, anyway) a distillation of more complicated traditional kung fu.

AND, I am really getting to like just mixing it up with a partner, and looks like judo will have plenty of THAT!



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Peace.
Reverend Tim

[Sihing73]

ReverendTim,

I see no problem with taking Judo in addition to your Wing Chun. I think you will find that they will compliment each other as you said.

There are two types of "mixing it up" in Judo practice. Both are refered to as Randori. Straight Randori is almost like a contest in that both players can atack at will. French Randori is kind of prearranged in that the players take turns, one attacks the other defends then they switch roles. As to how much ground work you do that will depend on your schools philosophy. Some will stress more on throwing and some more on groundwork. A good school will mix the two as you get points for both in competition.

The only thing I would keep in mind is that Judo is and was designed as a SPORT. Its techniques can be used in actual combat but the developement of Judo was to keep the art alive and thus its goal was geared towards sport and personal developement.

Good luck. If I can be of any assistance just ask. I am always open to learning so I would be interested in your take on both Wing Chun and Judo.

Peace,

Dave

Dave,

Yeah, the sport focus is the only reason I've had any pause at all while considering judo. But I've gotten nothing but positive responses about it, so I figure I'll just give it a go. Worst thing that can happen is I'll get some good workouts and learn how to fall down!

Careful with that offer for advice...just ask Jimmy Lin, I can go on and on and on with the questions. I only work 1 hour a night...leaves me plenty of time to come up with "yeah, but what if..." and "what do you think of..."

[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

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Peace.
Reverend Tim

[GinSueDog]

Sihing73,
Actually Judo was not orginally designed as a combative sports martial art. From my understanding it was in fact the chosen martial arts for Japan's police force and military a like was very different from today's version that is seen in the Olympics. There are some schools out there that still teach Judo as it as taught by Count Koma back in the day. As it is Judo can be very effective, a friend of mine is a blackbelt and is a real BA.-ED

[Sihing73]

Hi GinSueDog,

I don't want you to take this the wrong way but Judo was developed as a sport. Its developement is quite well documented and much is known of its founder Dr. Jigaro Kano. Dr. Kano studied JuJitsu for many years and incorporated many of its techniques into his own system. He chose the name Judo which translates roughly as Gentle Way as opposed to JuJitus which means Gentle Art in order to emphasize his focus on using the art to better ones own self developement. He removed many of the more "combative" techniques in order to make it safer for those playing it. It is also rumored that he was one of the first to utiilze colored belts to distinguish rank. Judo was developed at a time of restructuring in Japan. The Samuri were kind of on the way out along with many of the ideals and attitudes which led to such a society. Judo was designed as a sport in order to further ones self awareness and also to insure the arts survival.

As to Judo being the chosen art for Japans Military or Police force I would ask you to check your sources. It has always been my understanding that the Police were taught Aikijitsu which is a specialized version of JuJitsu and Aikido. They are also taught another art, which escapes me, dealing with only grappling and holding techniques. As to the military I can not say but doubt if Judo is the art of choice.

I am not saying that Judo is not an effective art for combat. I know many that can use the art as well, however, it is a sport. It was designed as a sport and it takes a highly skilled practicianer to utilize it in combat. Also, what one sees used in combat will differ in that it will utilize strikes and kicks, Atemi-Wazi prior to and in addition to throws. Unfortuneately most doing Judo never see this side of the art, much like those that do Tai Chi think it is only for sport.

Again, please do not take this as an attack or saying you are wrong and I am right. I could be mistaken and if so would welcome being corrected. I only ask that you verify your sources and let the rest of us know who and where you got your information. It could very well be that my sources are not as reliable. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] I have not hear dof Count Koma but to my knowledge Judo is only a little over a hundred years old prior to this there were various forms of JuJitsu.

Peace,

Dave

[GinSueDog]

Sihing73,
This is the articile I got some of my information on, here is the whole articile.
as I said before it orginally was not intended to be a sport.-ED

The History of Kodokan Judo
by Keo Cavalcanti
Judo had its origin in the ancient Japanese art of jujutsu, a system of hand-to-hand combat. The bushi of feudal Japan (samurai) are usually credited for developing jujutsu (at their time the art was known as Yoroi kumi-uchi, a grappling method for fighters fully clad in Japanese armor). However, the Nihon Shoki (the Chronicle of the Japanese nation) documents public unarmed competitions (hikara-kurabe) dating back to 230 B.C.

Jujutsu has been known by several names throughout Japanese history: taijutsu, yawara, kempo, kugusoku, kumiuchi, koshinomawan. What is unique to the art is that one did not use brute strength to overpower an opponent, but rather skill, finesse and flexibility. Economy of energy, balance, and grace were the outstanding hallmarks of the good jujutsu practitioner. Unlike the Western hand-to-hand fighter, the jujutsu fighter was expected to be soft and pliable, winning by appearing to yield.

In classical form, during the feudal period, jujutsu was part of the bushi training, along with archery, spearfighting, swordsmanship, horsemanship, maneuvering, and etiquette. Its importance grew with the rise of the bushi class after the late Heian period. Throughout subsequent periods of Japanese history (Kamakura, 1185-1336; Muromachi, 1336-1573 into the Tokugawa period, 1603-1868) the art became more diversified and specialized, being taught in schools (ryus). Ryus organized around different aspects of the art, perpetuating their founders' vision.

The schools differed in emphasis and strategy. Some specialized in throwing (nage), others in groundwork (osae, shime, kansetsu), and others in striking (atemi). In matters of strategy, some schools valued taking the initiative in combat while others preferred timely reaction to an opponent's aggression. Those that followed the principles of swordsmanship insisted on sudden, total attack. Others preferred to neutralize the opponent's attack once it was in motion.

Given the constant state of war in Japanese feudal history, ryus tested their vision of jujutsu on the battlefield, where the premium was on survival. The three hundred years of peace that followed the Japanese civil wars led to a change in the nature of the art. Under the harsh Tokugawa martial codes combats between bushi became rarer and heavy warfare far less frequent. On the other hand, unarmed combat became more common. The rise of the common citizen at the end of the period required that jujutsu techniques be adapted to the needs of everyday life.

At that time, several ryus lost their insistence on ceremonial or ritual posturing in favor of a more practical approach to hand-to-hand combat. By the end of the Tokugawa period, the ancient martial arts of Japan (Bujutsu) created for the warrior class began to lose importance as the martial ways (Budo) created for the commoner gained ascendancy. Budo was not simply a collection of fighting techniques but also a spiritual discipline, a way of life.

During the Meiji Restoration after 1868, the transition from Bujutsu to Budo was completed. Several branches of the martial arts changed names and orientation entirely. Kyujutsu became Kyudo, iai-jutsu became iaido, aiki-jutsu became aikido, and jujutsu became Judo. There was a shift from warfare techniques to everyday life principles, with the spiritual side of the arts being more emphasized. Schools now passed their tradition to students in the form of techniques, philosophy and codes of ethics. Students were expected to be fully versed on hand-to-hand combat, but also to embody the philosophy of the ryu's founders.


Dr. Jigoro Kano, founder of modern Judo, was born in the town of Mikage in the Hyogo Prefecture, on October 28, 1860. Shihan Kano never viewed the martial arts as a means to display physical prowess or superiority. As a pacifist, he studied them to find a way to live in peace with other human beings. In his youth Kano studied Jujutsu under a number of different masters. Sensei Teinosuke Yagi was his first teacher, but at the age of 18 he entered the dojo of Tenshin-Shinyo Sensei Hachinosuke Fukuda. Upon graduation from Tokyo University, he studied the Kito tradition under Sensei Iikubo. By his mid-twenties, Shihan Kano had been initiated into the secret teachings of both ryus.

Kano's search for a unifying principle for the techniques he learned led him to the first principle of Judo--Seiryoku Zenyo (maximum efficiency in mental and physical energy). To him, only techniques that kept practitioners from spending much physical and mental energy should be incorporated into the system. One should use the energy of one's opponent to defeat his or her aggression. He called the resulting body of knowledge Judo. To propagate his art Kano founded the Kodokan (the "school to learn the way") at the Eishoji Temple in 1882.

Kano built his system around three major sets of techniques: throwing (nage waza), groundwork (katame waza) and striking (atemi waza). The throwing techniques, drawn from the Kito ryu, were further divided into standing (tachi waza) and sacrifice (sutemi waza) techniques. Standing techniques included hand (te waza), hip (koshi waza) and foot (ashi waza) throws. Sacrifice techniques include full sacrifice (ma sutemi waza) and side sacrifice (yoko sutemi waza) throws.

Kano's groundwork and striking techniques were drawn more heavily from the martially oriented Tenshin-Shinyo ryu. Groundwork is organized into holds (osaekomi waza), strangulations (shime waza) and joint locks (kansetsu waza). While Kano taught groundholds earlier to his students, the secrets of shime and kansetsu waza were saved for those who had attained a higher ranking in the art. High ranking students were also expected to know the art of resuscitation (kappo), so as to conduct their training in a safe and responsible manner.

Judo's striking techniques included upper (ude ate) and lower limb blows (ashi ate). Among the striking techniques were those utilizing fists, elbows, hand-edges, fingers, knees and feet as striking points. Because of its lethal nature, Atemi waza was also taught exclusively to high ranking Judokas at the Kodokan.

Judo was taught in a well-structured process. Standing techniques were organized into five sets ranking from less strenuous or technically difficult to more advanced (the Gokyo no Waza). Ground and striking techniques were organized in sets also. The sets were introduced slowly as Judokas became more proficient in the art. Students were divided into mudansha (color belt level) and yudansha (black belt level). Mudansha students were ranked into five classes (kyus) while yudansha were ranked into ten degrees (dans). Ranks indicated the student's level of expertise in the art as different techniques were introduced at each new rank.

To complete the transition from jutsu (martial art) to Do (way of life), Kano added a strict code of ethics and a humanitarian philosophy to his newly created system. Kodokan instructors and students were expected from the beginning to be outstanding examples of good character and honest conduct. Any hand-to-hand combat outside of the dojo, public demonstrations for profit, or any behavior that might bring shame to the school could lead to suspension or expulsion from the Kodokan.

Kano's ultimate concern for the well-being of the whole individual and of the community is reflected in his teaching methods and in Judo's second guiding principle. Kano utilized four teaching methods in his dojo: randori (free practice of all Judo technique), kata (pre-arranged forms, considered the more technical rituals of the art), ko (his systematic lecturing), and mondo (periods of question and answer).

The debates between Shihan Kano and his disciples led him to the second principle of Judo, Jita Kyoei (the principle of mutual benefit and prosperity). Kano believed that the diligent practice of Judo would lead to the realization that one could not progress at the expense of others, that in mutual prosperity lied the key to any real progress in human life. He was so taken with the principle that he regarded its diffusion, through the practice of Judo, as his greatest mission in life.

Most of Judo's development took place around the turn of the century. In 1889 Kano traveled to Europe and America to promote his martial art. He would make as many as eight trips to other continents to propagate Judo before his untimely death at sea, on May 4, 1938.


The technical aspects of Judo came into full maturity in 1900 with the founding of the Kodokan Yudanshakai (association of black belt holders). On July 24, 1905 eighteen masters representing the leading Japanese Jujutsu ryus gathered at the Butokukai in Kyoto to join Kano's system. Kano's work had triumphed over Jujutsu in Japan, replacing the Tokugawa period aggressive martial arts with the more sophisticated way of life he had envisioned. The final touches were added in 1909 when the Kodokan became a foundation and in 1920 with the revision of the throwing techniques called the Gokyo no Waza. The art's intellectual and moral philosophy came into full being by 1922 with the foundation of the Kodokan Cultural Judo Society.

Between 1912 and 1952, when the International Judo Federation was founded, several Japanese experts immigrated to other continents, spreading Judo teachings. Sensei Gunji Koizumi, 7th Dan, went to Great Britain in 1918, founding the London Budokwai. Mikinosuke Kawaishi, 7th Dan, one of the world's foremost experts on Judo kata, went to France in 1922. Sensei Sumiyuki Kotani, 8th Dan in 1952, trained the first team of American Air Force Judokas at the Kodokan. That team became the seed of what is now the United States Judo Association.

As Judo spread throughout the Western world it slowly gained the form of a sport. Its eventual popularity in World and Regional Games and inclusion in the 1964 Olympic Games led more and more to an emphasis on the physical and competitive aspects of the art, sometimes at the expense of its intellectual, moral and spiritual underpinnings. In 1982 (on the 100th anniversary of the founding of the Kodokan) the Kodokan Judo throwing techniques, the Gokyo no Waza, were revised and expanded, then in 1997 the Kodokan added two additional throws.

[Sihing73]

Thank you for the article. It may be me but I am not sure what is being presented which is different than what I have already stated. I credited the origins of Judo to be in the earlier forms of JuJitsu which were combat arts. However I still stand by my original statement that Jigaro Kano developed Judo for Sport. If I may add a quote from your article:

"Shihan Kano never viewed the martial arts as a means to display physical prowess or superiority. As a pacifist, he studied them to find a way to live in peace with other human beings."

The above would lead me to believe that combat was not Judos founders goal. I agree that Judo does contain Atemi-Wazi, which I mentioned earlier but this does not mean it is intended for real combat. All you have to do is look at the katas one needs to obtain Dan ranking and you will see they are not as realistic as some other arts.

I also have read several books and articles on Judo as well as having obtained Dan Status when a bit younger. I stick to my view; Judo was developed for sport. Its orignins may come from combat but Dr Kano intended Judo to be a sport. I also stick to my statement of Judo not being the art of choice of the Police in Japan.

Judo is an excellent art and I do not want to seem like I am putting it down. But, it is geared more for sport then realistic street combat. It is not unusual for Judoka to be hit several times before they can apply a throw. While a throw will end a lot of fights if done right, taking punishement in order to apply my technique is not my view of a true combat art. I also don't think the average Judoka would be as well versed in defedning against a knife as some other arts. Judo is a sport. Even in the most combat form it is still a sport.

Also please keep in mind that many Judoka in Japan also study Karate or another art. This is not to say that a sport art can not work on the street, just that it takes a bit more. Kendo is a sport but a good practicioner will be hard to defeat.


Sorry,

Dave

[GinSueDog]

Sihing73,
One of the main reasons why Count Koma (oops meant Dr.Kano) invented Judo was to created a way for warriors to honorably submit without losing there life or an arm or leg and most importantly without losing there honor. Back then, in old Japan there was no tapping, if someone challaged you and had you in a armbar, your arm got broken no questions asked. That was one reason why Count Koma thought it was so important to include a different set of ethics with his art so you could tap and fight again another day. This is what I have been told by both a friend who is a blackbelt in Judo and from what I have read on the net. Judo orginally was not a sport but later became one. It was orginally created to replace jujutsu.-ED

[This message has been edited by GinSueDog (edited 05-08-2000).]

[Sihing73]

GinSueDog,

Perhaps I am dense but I have no idea who Count Koma is nor what he has to do with Judo. Judo did not exist until it was developed by Dr. Jigaro Kano in the late 1800s'. This is a little bit past the time of Fuedal Japan. Perhaps what you are referring to is not Judo but Jujitsu. As to methods of "honorably submitting" I suggest you read up on BUSHIDO which was and I guess to some still is the code of the Samuri. You will find there are ways to show respect to ones enemy as well as to surrender.

Please provide more detail as to this Count Koma is and what he has to do with Judo.

Peace,

Dave

[GinSueDog]

Count Koma which means "Count of Combat" was the nick name for the Judo and jiu-jitsu master Mitsuo Maeda who in 1914 came to Brazil. He was undefeated in Judo and of 2000 mixed fights only lost two matches both to catch-as-catch-can wrestlers. He was one of Kano's top students. Dr. Kano invented Judo, his students at the time took it to the next level, but if you read that article I posted his reasons for inventing Judo become clear, it was not to be a sport but a way to avoid death matches, a new way of thinking it just progressed over time to become a sport.-ED

[Sihing73]

Okay, now I know the "nickname" of this authority of Kodakan Judo. Could we have his real name?

Allow me to quote from one of the books I have on Judo. It is written by E.G. Bartlett and first published in 1962. The title is Judo and Self-Defense. Mr Bartlett was one of the members of the British Judo Association. This organization was founded in 1918 by Mr. G. Koizumi and was headed by a Mr. Tani. The organization was called The Budokwai and was established in London.

From page 11 I would like to offer the following quote:
"In 1882 he opened his own school, the Kodokwan, in Tokyo. As he progressed, Kano came to see that Ju-jitsu was more than a way of defence against attacks; it was a way of life that developed the intellect and the spirit. Kano selected those movements most suitable for practice as a sport from the many he had learnt, and he called the system he compiled "JUDO" as distinct from "Ju-jitsu". "JUDO" means the gentle way whereas Ju-kistu means the gentle art."

From the above we can see that Dr. Kanos intention was to develope a sport based on the earier art of Ju-jitsu. He called this "Sport" version Judo. By choosing to include his art in the do rather than in the jitsu family Kano made his intention clear. The art was developed for sport and self developement not combat.

As far as the King of Combat I would suggest he relied more heavily on Ju-jitsu than on Judo if he fought. I also would like to point out that the "death matches" you make reference to would have taken place with weapons not empty handed. Thus an empty hand art would not need to be developed in order to save lives in such an instance. Japan has a rich history of weapons based arts. Also, martial arts were almost the sole domain of the nobility prior to the start of this century. Empty hand methods of fighting became popular with the peasent class in order to defend against the Samuri. Although, the complete curriculum of the Samuri included such things as; Archery, Horsemanship, Empty-hand fighting and Swordsmanship.

I am sorry but I think the majority of documented history for Judo will present it as a Sport developed in the late 1800's in order to keep some methods alive during a reconstructionist phase when jistu arts were falling out of favor. If you examine any of the arts of Japan and compare do arts with jitsu arts you will see one is combat oriented while the other is geared towards sefl-developement.

I remain unconvinced of Judo being devloped as a fighting art. I admit its predecessar Ju-jitsu was a complete combat art but Judo was designed more for sport use.

Peace,

Dave

[Sihing73]

My appoligies I did not notice the counts real name included in the original post. Sorry I guess my eyes are failing me. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

Peace,

Dave