Judo Opinion?

[Scott]

SiHing73, the other art police art taught is Chin Na.

-Scott

[Sihing73]

HI Scott,

Considering the age of this post and my failing memory [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] could you please elaborate on your post. I would like to know which Police you are referring to. For example are you stating that the Japanese Police study Chin Na which is a Chinese art? Or are you implying that Police Departments in other parts of the world are taught Chin Na as part of the 'standard" curriculum? Please let me know which you mean so I can better grasp where you are soming from.

Considering you are referring to American Police departments I would tend to agree that many departments have implemented some sort of Controlling/Submission methods and many are based on Chin Na. Still, I am unaware of any standardized training program and would say that in most states most is set up individually by various departments. It is only in Japan, that I am sure of, that there is a standardized program which incorporates the study of Martial Arts into the Police Departments. As a matter of fact, and please correct me if I am wrong, it is my understanding that Japan "requires" training in the Martial Arts and even allows time to be put aside for a minimum to be maintained. Still, I think they would lean more towards Karate or Ju Jitsu/Aikido rather than a foreign method like Chin Na.

Peace,

Dave

[Master Po]

I was told by a japanese friend of mine that all police in japan train in judo (called Police Judo). I also heard they teach a type of aikido geared for police. It makes perfect sence to chose these two arts as police want to control a suspect with out causing him permanent harm.

[Sihing73]

Hi Master PO,

I was under the impression that the Police in Japan opt more for Aikijitsu (sp?). However I could be wrong. Would love more info on specifics if you could provide them.

Peace,

Dave

[HAMMERFIST]

Good Reverend,
Are you training for fun or protection? Judo is a heavy Gi oriented MA. I don't know where you live, but nobody wears gi's on the street here. BJJ is gi oriented to a point, but most of the techniques are totally applicable to normal clothing. I would say ditch the Judo before you become "envolved" too much and find a BJJ or Sambo school. I know your schedule and budget isn't flexible, but teeth aren't cheap and time off from work recouperating in a hospital doesn't fit in most peoples schedule.

Those pine boards had it commin to them-besides, I'm not allowed to hit real people!!!

[Sihing73]

HI Hammerfist,

Although I am sure you mean well I would tend to disagree about dropping Judo in favour of BJJ. While you are correct in stating that Judo does most of its work wearing Gi's so does BJJ. Also, BJJ spends too much time on the groundfighting aspect, IMHO, to be considered the most viable street art. It is great when faced one on one and with a nice clean surface to fight on. But, I do not relish the prospect of rolling around on the ground in an asphalt parking lot filled with broken glass, or with one or two of my opponents firends standing aorund.

The concepts of Judo, as well as most MA's, will translate into other situations, even BJJ [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] and it is the concepts which you must be concerned with not the specific techniques. Judo trains one all about off-balancing an opponent and how to utilize his strength against them. It also covers a variety of throwing techniques, foot, hip, shoulder and sacrifice throws. In addition it covers groundfighting as well. All in all a pretty well rounded appraoch, even if it is really a "sport" rather than combat art [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] Still, the concetps translate into viable street defense. If you understand them. Besides, Reverent Tim studies Wing Chun as well so I don't think his street defense will be that lacking. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

Peace,

Dave

[Paul DiMarino]

Hi Sihing,

I don't think the gi is much of a handicap or crutch when trained properly. If you learn the principles behind controlling your opponent in a standing or ground grapple, then you won't be dependant on the gi. This fact is especially true against untrained fighters. They are clueless when it comes to grappling.

Also, don't be so quick to dismiss BJJ for self-defense. That was what it was created for and has since evolved in the sport version that you see today. Different schools have different strengths and approaches though, so it's difficult to generalize one way or another. In my opinion, the watering down process has already begun. Like with any other art or system of fighting, it is what you make it.

[Sihing73]

Hi Paul,

Please don't misconstrue my intention. I am not putting down BJJ or any other art. However, as it is or has ben presented here in the States it does not seem to be the most viable street defense art. I would tend to agree with you as to the "watering down" effect.

I think that all arts are effective when trained properly. The problem is in getting the proper training. In other words if an art is predominately used for sport it will reflect that. For example, have you ever gone to a tournament and seen guys leave themselves wide open or even present their back to an opponent because there were no points given for strikes to the back? Think about how these guys would fare on the street for real. I have said it before and I will say it again, Judo was designed for sport. However, that is not to say it can not be an effective street art when combined with Atemi Wazi etc. Bjj could be good in certain circumstances but not so goo din others.

If you read any MA magazine you will see all kinds of adds for the "ultimate" fighting system. Many of these claim to need little training to be effectively used by the average person. This is what I am against. Let's be realistic. If you train to deal one on one and go to the ground then in the street against more than one you will most likley have a problem. Likewise if I am a stand up fighter and am taken to the ground I will have more difficulty as well.

There is no ultimate art which will work for everyone in every circumstance. The key is to find an art you like and learn it to the best of your ability. I think that most who do this will find their art, whatever it may be, to more than meet their needs.

Peace,

Dave

[sct82abn]

i'm with you 100% on this one.no offense to ginsue,i like your posts,but from what i've read and seen documented on judo it was developed to be a sport.why would he take the combat applications out of jujitsu were it not?

it was taught in public schools as part of the curriculum to instill discipline.

when it was brought to the U.S. teddy roosevelt took lessons,and it was taught to women because it was believed to be empowering to them.

i believe my facts are straight,correct me if i'm wrong. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

[sct82abn]

[*]null<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>and while i have alot of respect for BJJ,and am going to take it soon,it isn't the best answer for every situation either.

if there's more than one person looking to kick your ass then it might not be a good idea to grab one of them and roll around on the ground with them.it seems fairly obvious that you're not going to come out of it in very good shape
[/quote] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

[GinSueDog]

Well, here is a piece of the article I posted at the beginning of this subject: "As Judo spread throughout the Western world it slowly gained the form of a sport. Its eventual popularity in World and Regional Games and inclusion in the 1964 Olympic Games led more and more to an emphasis on the physical and competitive aspects of the art, sometimes at the expense of its intellectual, moral and spiritual underpinnings. In 1982 (on the 100th anniversary of the founding of the Kodokan) the Kodokan Judo throwing techniques, the Gokyo no Waza, were revised and expanded, then in 1997 the Kodokan added two additional throws."

If you read the whole article from start to finish I think it clearly shows that Judo did not become a sport until it was interduced to the west and was suppose to be a way of life originally. As for BJJ, I say learn to kick one person's ass first before worrying about beating up multiple opponents.-ED
[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

"The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground...take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up...keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere...be ready and able to go everywhere."-a mix martial artist

[Sihing73]

HI GinSueDog,

I think we can agree to disagree. Suffice it to say that neither of us will convince anyone of any different opinion then already had. In other words those that believe Judo was designed as sport will continue to believe that those that think it was more combat oriented will believe that. In the end does it really matter as far as this forum is ocncerned? Kind of like the old analogy of how many angels can fit on the head of a pin. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

I respect your right to your own opinion and while we may differ that does not mean we can not offer something to each other. I have enjoyed your posts and would agree that unless there is something NEW to be added we move on to other things. This is an interesting topic and could grow into so much more, once we get past the Sport or Combat sticking point.

So, having said that; lets all agree to leave sport or combat alone and move on, if the deisre is there, to other aspects of Judo. For example we could discuss the most effective thorws for short or tall people. Or we could discuss the principles behind some of the techniques.

Anyone????

Peace,

Dave

[WT]

Several early Judo pioneers here in Europe
was very critical towards the sportification of Judo.
I have a book by Opa Schutte,where he describes Judo in almost Aikidolike terms.
To him and his generation competition Judo was
just a small part.
WT

[WT]

Anybody familiar with Kime No Kata,or Kodokan Goshin Jutsu?
WT

[Paul DiMarino]

I won't comment on why Judo was developed, but many historical conversations about the art can be found at http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/foru...fm?forum_id=28

Many of the posters there can provide examples and cite sources to back them up.