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Thread: Jeet Kune Do

  1. #46
    Watchman Guest
    >>>>>Watchman, where did Yip Man get that really cool JKD training device?<<<<<

    From the Brucinator Himself, Rogue. Where else?! Legend has it Bruce also taught him pak sau and the straight blast too. Wing Chun just wouldn't be same today without all that.

  2. #47
    Daedalus Guest

    Formlessness

    The comments that Bruce made about JKD being without form and being absent of style are simply ways of saying "I do what works best for me, regardless of where it comes from."

    The mindset is what makes it JKD, not the techniques. Techniques, for the most part are generic.

  3. #48
    rogue Guest
    "The mindset is what makes it JKD, not the techniques. Techniques, for the most part are generic."

    Good answer, so JKD could be based on Judo or Tai Chi Chuan. So could I drop the Wing Chun techniques? Hell, could I scrap every technique from it and start fresh with techniques from totally different arts?

    And here's some more pictures of Japanese and Okinawan karate masters.

    <table>
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    Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
    Louis L'Amour
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  4. #49
    dumog93 Guest

    i'm sure people would argue,but...

    I am currently in the jkd pipeline of Inosanto's,but i don't see why not.I think what Bruce and many others who i respect are really trying to say is that it doesn't matter what styles you get things from as long as they don't own you.I would guess wing chun was a popular pick due to the chi sau and the concepts that go along with it that aren't as integral to other systems.I think the whole idea is to come up with a series of movements that flow into each other in progressive form using the least amount of effort to produce maximum results(end of fight).Following this line of thought all the concepts come into place such as no mindedness,centerline,mirroring,immoveable elbow,etc.I don't see a reason why you couldn't do the same thing with any set of styles that were complimentary to each other,but i do see the limitations of certain styles.Of course most of the karate styles i'm thinking of can be done more "flowing" and without a forward reverse punch if you had the presence of mind to soften things up.Personally i think wing chun is a good core system for anything,but i admit i'm not an expert and i think it will take many,many years before i can probably feel confident with most of my techniques.A few problems i see in many martial arts is the choppiness.I don't need to punch and ki-ai(however you spell it) and admire my work.I would rather flow into something else and get things over with.Another problem are styles that are rooted and think they can take a good grappler out with a snapping front kick or simply sidestep them with a mortal combat move.Unrealistic at best.As long as concepts of the arts you study don't interfere with your personal way of fighting or common sense i would think anything can be jkd.JKD to me just means a coherent system of fighting that covers all the elements and can flow like water or crash like a wave when it has to.A balance of hard and soft techinques,striking,trapping,grappling,and an emphasis on sensitivity and body control(both you and your opponents).This is a lot to cover,so it's only reasonable to expect to spend many years when trying to cover all the bases.I guess i'm trying to see it like i see grappling.I was a wrestler,i now take jiu-jitsu.I don't call myself a wrestler or a bjj guy,just a grappler.I wish people would start to view the stand up portion of the arts the same way.

    -Devildog

  5. #50
    rogue Guest
    "it doesn't matter what styles you get things from as long as they don't own you"

    I like that alot.

    "Of course most of the karate styles i'm thinking of can be done more "flowing" and without a forward reverse punch if you had the presence of mind to soften things up."

    They usually do soften up a bunch around black belt, check out the Basai, Tekki and other advanced kata for how techniques should be done.

    And are you sure that reverse punch is a punch and not a grab? :)

    Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
    Louis L'Amour

  6. #51
    Sharky Guest

    Jeet Kune Do

    Technically, it is impossible to teach JKD, isn't itt? IT's different for everyone, and the fact that you are teaching someone how to punch a certain way goes against the philosophy of the "art" doesn't it? A tall JKD dude and a short JDK should not fight the same way.

    So how come there are so many jkd teachers and schools? There is no problem with an experienced martial artists creating their own style which works, then selling them as self defence classes. where people imitate what he is teaching, but jkd cannot be tought?

    Am i wrong?

    Edd

  7. #52
    Ryu Guest
    I hate using Bruce quotes...but
    A good JKD instructor should be a "finger pointing to the moon". The one teaching should be charasmatic, experienced, and able to spark the practitioner's creative side. One has to start somewhere, and you can't put a style together unless you have experience for a while. Look at me for instance, My JKD instructor was Paul Vunak, and I trained the way he taught me. However I don't fight like Voo does now. I appreciate his thing, but because of my own experiences I have altered what he showed me. I am a grappler, not a stand-up fighter. I went into judo and BJJ, and used his "RAT" system on the ground instead of standing. I don't straightblast usually unless to get a clinch. Once in a clinch I will pin a guy to the wall or car, etc. and headbutt, knee, etc. If I can get away with going to the ground I have many options. I can simply pin a guy and suffocate him a little (have done that in a couple fights) so I don't have to really hurt him. Or I can step it up, mount, and pummel with headbutts, and elbows. If I have to get up and escape I have his mass attack drills pressed into my experience. I also carry knives, and work with Filipino MA taught to me by Paul as well. So my "style" is no longer like Paul's style. His style may work for him, but through experience, I don't like it as much as being able to immobilize someone. Plus I can injure to degree according to the situation (hopefully..LOL I am not claiming to be Mr. Tough guy or anything...I know what it's like to be pounded by more skilled guys)

    Paul's teachings were great for me, but I don't have to "mimic" him. I have my own way of fighting now. It was shaped by my own experiences, not Paul's. That's the way it should be. Hope that helps :)

    Ryu



    judo legend, Masahiko Kimura

  8. #53
    Sharky Guest

    um.....

    heh, well that's that then :D

    Edd

  9. #54
    Daedalus Guest

    That's how I see it!

    Commercialism has given JKD a bad name.

    How do you market a concept?

    How do you become certified in an idea?

    Doesn't make sense,..does it?

    But nothing is impossible when money is involved!

    No one owns a concept,..JKD has the potential to be unique for each practicioner. However, some people like to imitate Bruce Lee and say that it isn't JKD unless you do the techniques that Bruce did, the way Bruce did them.

    I tend to think of what Bruce Lee did as Jun Fan Gung Fu, which was formed using the Jeet Kune Do principles and resulted in the perfect fighting style for Bruce Lee. Doesn't mean its perfect for me and you.

    Just my opinion.

  10. #55
    rogue Guest
    One that I agree with 100%.

    Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
    Louis L'Amour

  11. #56
    Grappling-Insanity Guest

    What makes JKD JKD?

    Well what makes it is what you want to make it. No you dont have to study JKD to actually be a JKD practitinor(sp?) in essence. JKD IS NOT A STYLE. It's concepts on how to abandon forms and guidlines. You make it yourselve, yes you can study various different arts and in essence be a JKDer. JKD is what YOU want to make it, however if you are really interested and want to study JKD ideas I suggest you take some classes in JKD. I'm not saying this is the only way to study JKD but I believe these classes help you to flow between styles. How about some pictures of some real good fighters IMO[img]http--a1140000.futurism.ws-susumu-pride-010325-susumu16.JPG[/img]

  12. #57
    4 Ranges Guest

    JKD is...

    ...well, if you're talking about JKD as combat discipline, then it is, simply REALISTIC FIGHTING. People like to say "oh, JKD is a compendium of wing chun, savate, boxing, yakety-yak", but it is actually about quickly taking out your opponent(s) in TOTAL COMBAT, regardless of style or technique. If it's not effective in a realistic situation, then it's not JKD. That's why a guy that combines tai chi/judo/bjj/wushu/gymnastics can't call what he's doing JKD...because those arts don't prepare you for, or necessarily deal with, realism. Unless your training revolves around gearing up, and going all out against a single or multiple opponents, you can't even begin to call what you're doing JKD, even if you train at a so-called JKD school.

    Now, if you're talking about JKD as combat philosophy, JKD is basically who you are. Don't subscribe to the x-files notion of "the truth is out there." The truth is you. To believe otherwise is to believe that the truth is something that you have to "get", and if you can "get" the truth, you can "own" the truth. Eventually, you have such a ownership over it, you can start "selling" the truth.

    That's why JKD can't be anything else other than who you are, because to believe otherwise is to believe that someone else can give it to you. And that's the fastest way to lose your money, and get yourself killed on the street. Teachers can POINT (we all know the quote, so I won't say it), to the truth, because they've seen it before...but that's all their roles require them to do.

    Ultimately, JKD is a very simple idea, for those who get it. Like the man said: "JKD: either you get it or you don't." :D

    Never confuse sparring with fighting. One is an exchange of skill; the other an exchange of blood.

    [This message was edited by 4 Ranges on 05-11-01 at 06:48 AM.]

  13. #58
    Grappling-Insanity Guest

    Nice

    Couldnt have said it better myself....

  14. #59
    rogue Guest

    I disagree, of course.

    I'm going to by-pass the fortune cookie philosophy parts since I've heard those before, hell I've even said them myself up until 2 years ago.

    Ultimately, JKD is a very simple idea, for those who get it. Like the man said: "JKD: either you get it or you don't.
    If it's simple then everyone should get it, if it's complex then there's an excuse for it being hard to define.

    "If it's not effective in a realistic situation, then it's not JKD. That's why a guy that combines tai chi/judo/bjj/wushu/gymnastics can't call what he's doing JKD...because those arts don't prepare you for, or necessarily deal with, realism."

    Define "realism". Does realism mean that you actually can get hurt in training or something else. Are you also saying that the throws and chokes of judo and the ground game of bjj won't work on the street and aren't realistic? I've had three JKD instructors, all of whom would take exception to that. Tai Chi if taught properly is also very nasty.

    I'll agree with wushu & gymnastics though.

    "Unless your training revolves around gearing up, and going all out against a single or multiple opponents..."

    I'll counter with "gearing up" not being realistic. I've yet to fight on the street wearing hand wraps, gloves and head gear. Also "going all out" to me means that the people you're fighting really intend to hurt you, other than that it's all just sparring.

    Is it safe to say that currently JKD means something different to everyone? And if it does then how can it have a label like JKD.

    Concept:
    1. A general idea derived or inferred from specific instances or occurrences.
    2. Something formed in the mind; a thought or notion. See Synonyms at idea.
    3. Usage Problem. A scheme; a plan:

    Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
    Louis L'Amour

  15. #60
    DragonzRage Guest
    Too many people are so caught up with criticizing a man who's been dead for years and debating semantics about an abstract concept to ever simply see what JKD simply is. Instead of wasting time with bull philosophical debate, they should just look at the end product and see for themselves. Guro Dan's accomplishment speaks for itself. Sensei Nakamura is one of the most reknowned and respected Shoot wrestlers in the world and his Jun Fan skills are precise and powerful. Paul Vunak has reality street fighting down to a science and he is one of the first Americans to promote Bjj and grappling long before there was a UFC. His insight and abilities are unquestionable. Erik Paulsen- one of the top NHB competitors in his day and undefeated light-heavyweight international Shooto champion. Now he is one of the most respected grappling authorities in the world with his diverse background in the grappling arts. And although Ted Wong doesn't get much press, from what I've seen his students have excellent basics and can employ Jun Fan techniques extremely well. I've had the privilege of training under Sensei Yori, Erik Paulsen and Guro Dan and seeing firsthand what they're all about. I've experienced many different people of many different backgrounds in the MA world and all I can say is that these guys are some of the best and most well rounded martial artists I've ever seen and I can only hope to accomplish what they have. Yet all three of them, as well as the other JKD men I mentioned each have unique teachings and different influences and experiences. What links them together is that they are all **** good and each of them can set an example for you to realize your own potential. THIS is what JKD is all about, IMO. I could care less about all the BS debate about how good Bruce really was, OJKD vs JKDC, and why Guro Dan didn't go to Bruce's birthday party. As for all this nonsense about JKD being a "marketing catch phrase" and stupid philosophical debate, I'll tell you this: ANYONE can prescribe to the philosophies of JKD or teach with a JKD mindset regardless of who taught them or what styles they know. That is the end of the philosophical side right there.

    BUT you cannot go around calling yourself a "JKD teacher", etc. JKD may just be a name, but it is a name that people associate with something particular. The name belongs to the men who built it! Guys like Guro Dan, Paul Vunak, Richard Bustillo, Ted Wong, Larry Hartsell and their top students. If you want to train with the JKD mindset, that's perfectly fine. But the minute you start calling yourself a "JKD instructor" or a "JKD practitioner" is the minute you start implying that you have been trained under and endorsed by the people listed above and that you can offer something of their teachings, which you really cannot. That would be doing a disservice to those men as well as the people you are lying to. So please, once you get your black belt in karate and finish reading all your Bruce Lee quotes, don't bother calling yourself a JKD instructor. Because you can be a guest in someone's house. You can get to know them and what they're about. But that doesn't make you part of their family. Once you cut the semantic crap, it's as simple as that.

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