Dey Sat ?

[buddhapalm]

Here is a Chinese language/mythology question.

Does anyone know the exact meaning of Dey Sat, meaning something like Earth Demon, Earth Devil, Earth Goblin or Ground Goblin ?

This is Cantonese, and am not sure of the Mandarin pronounciation.

What is the significance of this mythical creature ?

In our system we have a set that also uses this name. I have seen the name used elsewhere in some other Kung Fu systems, but I forget where.

Any insight or mythological perspectives would be most appreciated.

Also could the name signify someones nickname, just as White Haired Devil signified Hung-Fut master Bak Mor Jui. Therefore the staff/hand style of Earth Goblin ***** so and so. Just another possiblity to throw in.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

[mantis108]

Your question could be answered with more study on the Chinese culture and believe system. Here are some pieces that would help.

Dey Sart are Earth Demons/destroyers which are part of the 108 star constellations in Chinese astrology. There are 72 of these spirits. Their names are listed in a novel "Fung Shen Bong". Their manifestations are the star constallations. So in a sense, they are spirits of the stars or spirits that form the stars which is not unlike the concept in Greek mythology. Essentially, they are regarded as external and uncontrollable (by human standard) forces often cause mayhem with daily life. In certain cases or rather combinations, they cause the demise of matter or human.

Here's a theory on why 72 is associated with Earth?

Lao Tze in his Dao Te Ching mentioned that Dao gave birth to one. One gave birth to two. Two give birth to three and myriad of thing were born of three. Basically 0/1 - 2 - 3 - all things [re: 4]. What is of important is 1-2-3. We will come back to this "formula".

1+2+3=6
1x2x3=6

Six has the meaning of 6 harmonies (height axis, width axis and depth axis) which is basically the 3 dimensional space that human are capable of observing.

6x6=36

36x1=36 (Number for the realm of Heaven)
36x2=72 (Number for the realm of Earth)
36x3=108 (Number for the realm of Human)

This would be IMHO the simplest way to explain why the number is used. There is also a I Ching method via the use of 8 Trigrams to calculate this. The results are the same.

Hope this help

Mantis108

[buddhapalm]

Thanks so much Mantis108 :-)

What a coincidence, you mention the number 72 :-))))) The staff set in question in my system is called Dey Sat Kwun. This name is used by my Kung Fu Uncles and students of my Dai Sigung, the name we use from my Sifu and Sigung is Shaolin Secret/Private Pole (Siulum Bei Kwun). That's a little beside the point. The form has 72 movements in it and I heard that it was sometimes called Shaolin 72 Point/movement Pole also.

You said that there were 72 of these spirits ? Which spirits did you mean exactly...the Earth Demons/destroyer spirits, or spirits of the 108 stars in general. I would really love to know about their amount etc. I wonder what their individual names are ?

You mention the novel "Fung Shen Bong". Is it written in English ? what does it translate too.....Wind Spirit Society perhaps ? It sounds interesting.

I remember something in the Outlaws of the Marsh, with 108 heroes representing the 108 heavenly spirits/stars. Also the demons (72??) that were released by the king that started all of the trouble to begin with.

Your numerology explanation sounds very interesting and is also in the ballpark of what I am researching. As you imply 36, 72 and 108 may represent Heaven, Earth and Man. Well that boldly stands out as Tien Dey Yan ! May I ask what connections this numerology may have between Shaolin and TienDeyYan Wui ? This numerology certainly impies it in some coded way.

You mention the Six Harmonies. I have been acquanted with Luk Hap in the forms of Three Internal and Three External Harmonies.

Only one other time have I heard that the Six Harmonies implies the four cardinal directions plus up and down making six.

My next question is, do you think that some of the "Six Harmonies" styles/forms may be relating to this way of looking at 6 directions ? If so, is that because the movements of the style move in all directions, or because some connection to some esoteric sects or societies using this numerology ?

Lastly, do you have any information on the numerical significance of the number 54. I know it is 36 plus 18, but what could it mean ? I ask because I have many forms in my system with this count, as well as 72.

Sorry for so many questions and thanks again.

Cheers

Buddhapalm
teleka@pacbell.net

[mantis108]

Hi BuddhaPalm,

You are most welcome. Thanks for the interesting info on your style.

The novel is in a sense a tribute to the Chinese pantheon. So almost everything about Chinese mythology can be found in it. Some of the more popular as well as obscure deities, immortals or even demons etc... are included. So if you can read Chinese. You may be able to find a copy in China town. The title roughly translates into "Decoration (Fung) of Deities (Shen)". Bong is "a listing of". The premise of the novel was the war between Zhang dynasty and Zhou dynasty (11th century BCE). There was a massive lost of lives (mostly warriors). So Jiang Taigung (you know the famous Grand Duke who fished without hook) was appointed to decorate the deads so that their spirits might "rest" in peace. the 108 star constellations divided into 2 groups (36 + 72) were awarded to 108 spirits/souls of 108 dead warriors. So there are many more of these spirits. If you go to a Chinese store sometime you'll see a black face figure holding a steel whip and riding a black tiger. That's one of the deities mentioned in the novel. His name was General Zhao Gongming ( a powerful bad guy) but he was decorated as the God of martial prosperity. Anyway that's kind of off topic.

Water margin borrowed the names of the 108 star constellations which was kind of a fashion in writting novel.

The numerology is closely related to Chinese believe system if not the very same believe system. As you might be aware Chinese play with numbers alot. Shaolin is Chinese Ch'an Buddhism. IT is as Chinese as it can be. Having said that 108 is not exclusive to Chinese believe system. Hinduism (parent religion of Buddhism) also have 108 as a tribute to the God Vishnu - the preserver.

Your first defination of Luk Hap/Liuhe is commonly used in internal martial arts. I believe the original meaning of Liuhe is the 4 direction plus up down [re: 3 dimensional space.]

The Liuhe style material that I know of (ie Liuhe 2 men staff) does involve moving/striking in all direction including leaping, dodging, etc...

Regarding the 54, I think it is 6 (old ying) x 9 (old yang). So it is a combination of old ying and old yang. Again the concept of expressing the ying/yang.

Hope this help

Regards

Mantis108

[buddhapalm]

Dear Mantis108,
Thanks again for your further explanation.

I will indeed try to find a translation of Fung Shen Bong. I am in San Francisco, so Chinatown's East Wind Books may have something in English. If it was ever translated.

Actually Jiang Taigung is one of my hero's in a sense. Or at least the sage I perhaps respect most. I love the story of the straight hook :-))) My Sifu would always tell it to me while I was growing up, later I read more about his philosophy in the Seven Military Classic's manual. Have you read that one, it has all of the military strategists manuals in one book from TaiKung to Tao Tao etc.

You mentioned:

"Regarding the 54, I think it is 6 (old ying) x 9 (old yang). So it is a combination of old ying and old yang. Again the concept of expressing the ying/yang. "

What exactly do you mean by old Yang and old Ying ? How old is that numerology system ? I think I had about 10 sets (mostly weapons) with that movement count in my QuanPo's. Also what could it possibly signify having the number 54 in the forms ?

Also regarding Yin and Yang, I have another staff set called Luk Hap Yin Yang Kwun (Six Harmony Yin Yang Pole). This set has 72 movements also. I am not sure it is from the same root as the Dey Sat Kwun yet.

Your answers have only aroused more questions :-)))

Cheers my friend,

Buddhapalm

[mantis108]

Hi BuddhaPalm,

"Thanks again for your further explanation. "

You are welcome, my friend.

"I will indeed try to find a translation of Fung Shen Bong. I am in San Francisco, so Chinatown's East Wind Books may have something in English. If it was ever translated."

Yeah, that's worth a try. I am not sure if there is an English edition though.

"Actually Jiang Taigung is one of my hero's in a sense. Or at least the sage I perhaps respect most. I love the story of the straight hook :-))) My Sifu would always tell it to me while I was growing up, later I read more about his philosophy in the Seven Military Classic's manual. Have you read that one, it has all of the military strategists manuals in one book from TaiKung to Tao Tao etc. "

Speaking of military classics, Chinese numerology is fully applicable (kind of like algebra). It makes no particalur sense to the uninitiated but once explained you will never look at numerology the same way. It is just some thing fun to work with.

"You mentioned:

"Regarding the 54, I think it is 6 (old ying) x 9 (old yang). So it is a combination of old ying and old yang. Again the concept of expressing the ying/yang. "

What exactly do you mean by old Yang and old Ying ? How old is that numerology system ? I think I had about 10 sets (mostly weapons) with that movement count in my QuanPo's. Also what could it possibly signify having the number 54 in the forms ? "

In I Ching (dated back to prehistoric time in China) there existed one of the oldest numerology systems. So we are talking very old. However the old Ying old Yang designation is definitely much younger (might be spring & autume period).

I Ching numerology designations:

1 = Tai Yang 2= Sui Ying 3=Sui Yang 4=Tai Ying
6 = Old Ying 7= Sui Yang 8=Sui Ying 9=old Yang

For the significance in the forms, you will have to check with your teachers. Every style has its own idea on how a form should be constructed. For example, traditional northern mantis has 4 roads (each about 10-12 moves) in each form. That makes about 40 some moves. Is there a meaning? We don't exactly know but it definitely helps to see the structure of the form and the uniformness of the system. I am not sure if my threoy about the 54 moves applies to your system. So your best bet is to check with your elders. By doing the checking you will benefit from becoming more involve with your system.

"Also regarding Yin and Yang, I have another staff set called Luk Hap Yin Yang Kwun (Six Harmony Yin Yang Pole). This set has 72 movements also. I am not sure it is from the same root as the Dey Sat Kwun yet. "

I see. Thanks for the interesting info.

Your answers have only aroused more questions :-)))

You have very interesting questions which are great discussion piece, my friend.

Regards

Mantis108

[r.(shaolin)]

The 108 as it is specifically associated with

[buddhapalm]

Mantis108 and r.(shaolin),

Thanks again.

Mantis108,
I will look much more into the numerology, also how it is interpreted into Military Strategy. Thats a new one to me.

You elucidated:

"1 = Tai Yang 2= Sui Ying 3=Sui Yang 4=Tai Ying
6 = Old Ying 7= Sui Yang 8=Sui Ying 9=old Yang "

What exactly is Tai Yang, Tai Ying, Sui Yang, Sui Ying, Old Yang and Old Ying ? If it is complicated to explain, then perhaps you can refer me to some good books, web sites, etc that I could research.

I would love to find out from my elders more, but there is a problem. My Sifu passed away exactly 10 years ago, his Sifu passed away exactly 20 years ago, my Dai Sigung passed away 2 years ago overseas and his students and Son have different forms listings except for 3 of them. That is Ba Kwa Dao, Dey Sat Kwun and Duan Da. The rest are all different. I am at a loss as to where the remaining forms in my system come from, they may all have come from my Great Grand Master, or they may have been brought in by my Grandmaster. Presently there is no-one alive that I know that can give me the answer. If I had started my research over 2 years ago I could have asked my Great Grand Master, but now it is too late.

I have tried desperately to compare forms and names from other systems, but so far I cannot say where most of my forms come from. I am guessing they are Mizong Quan or rare Lohan Quan forms, but I lean more to MizongQuan. I thought that by finding out the meaning of the numerology or the forms names then I may be able to get more clues as to their source. Now I am basically lost in the woods waiting for more clues to show up :-)

You said:
"You have very interesting questions which are great discussion piece, my friend."

Well my friend there is no better discussion than discussing Martial Arts history and theory over Turkish coffee on your next visit to San Francisco.

r.(shaolin),
Thats intersting about the rosaries. I can't remember, but I was looking into numerology and ancient calenders one day, and if I can remember correctly, I think I saw the number 108 in an ancient calender in Inca/Aztec culture. I may be very wrong, and I will try to look at the web page again if I can find it. Now here is a crazy thought.....could the rosary have been at one time related to the calendar ? Perhaps a way of telling the date, then transformed into some religious tool (chanting/mantra etc) Just a crazy thought, and you know me I have lots of them :-)))

Thanks everybody for the insights and information.

Within the four seas all men are brothers.

Buddhapalm

[r.(shaolin)]

as a postscript to the above.

In the example code numbers: 426

[Lisa]

"The 'mala' that is the Buddhist 'rosary' has 108 beads as did the Indian Buddhist 'rosary.'"

I could be wrong, but I believe the Catholic rosary has 108 as well.

Edit: nevermind... I think I'm wrong on that one

[mantis108]

Hi BuddhaPalm,

<<<Mantis108,
I will look much more into the numerology, also how it is interpreted into Military Strategy. Thats a new one to me. >>>

Well, you might have heard of Han dynasty strategist Cheung Leung? I believe he had a military classic or classic that is accredit to him. It is said that he acquired a mystical scroll that is called "Kei Moon Dun Garp" which is in a way numerology (algebra type) military strategy book filled with different forumlas or play [like the playbook of an American football coach. ] BTW, that scroll (may be a make up version of it) is now commonly used in divination. Coincidentally, there were 108 of these forumlas but Cheung Leung (?) condensed it into 18 which make use of the 9 palaces magic square. Anyway, it's a bit off topic. Fun stuff though.

<<<You elucidated:

"1 = Tai Yang 2= Sui Ying 3=Sui Yang 4=Tai Ying
6 = Old Ying 7= Sui Yang 8=Sui Ying 9=old Yang "

What exactly is Tai Yang, Tai Ying, Sui Yang, Sui Ying, Old Yang and Old Ying ? If it is complicated to explain, then perhaps you can refer me to some good books, web sites, etc that I could research. >>>

I can give you a brief explanation. For an indepth one, you will have to look into I Ching. Basically, all the odd numbers are Yang and even numbers are Ying. Tai means grand or extreme which is kind of a state of purity. Sui means junior or moderate. Lao is old that is used to designate the matured Tai. Lao is Tai (Yang or Ying) adding 5. Lao becomes Tai again if we subtract 5 from it. The concept here is that you need to train to understand the organic and holistic worldview of I Ching starting with the numbers.

<<<I would love to find out from my elders more, but there is a problem. My Sifu passed away exactly 10 years ago, his Sifu passed away exactly 20 years ago, my Dai Sigung passed away 2 years ago overseas and his students and Son have different forms listings except for 3 of them. That is Ba Kwa Dao, Dey Sat Kwun and Duan Da. The rest are all different. I am at a loss as to where the remaining forms in my system come from, they may all have come from my Great Grand Master, or they may have been brought in by my Grandmaster. Presently there is no-one alive that I know that can give me the answer. If I had started my research over 2 years ago I could have asked my Great Grand Master, but now it is too late. >>>

Having lost some of my Grand teachers and teachers in their "winter", I understand how you feel. We only miss what we have lost when the lost is forever. Hope you will be able to find what you are looking for someday.

<<<I have tried desperately to compare forms and names from other systems, but so far I cannot say where most of my forms come from. I am guessing they are Mizong Quan or rare Lohan Quan forms, but I lean more to MizongQuan. I thought that by finding out the meaning of the numerology or the forms names then I may be able to get more clues as to their source. Now I am basically lost in the woods waiting for more clues to show up :-) >>>

Keep looking. Internet is a power tool. You might eventually find it through the net.

<<<You said:
"You have very interesting questions which are great discussion piece, my friend."

Well my friend there is no better discussion than discussing Martial Arts history and theory over Turkish coffee on your next visit to San Francisco. >>>

Turkish coffee sounds wonderful. I'd love to meet for coffee some day. Thanks.

Regards

Mantis108

[Lau]

"Coincidentally, there were 108 of these forumlas but Cheung Leung (?) condensed it into 18 which make use of the 9 palaces magic square. Anyway, it's a bit off topic. Fun stuff though. "

Hi Mantis108, How are you? Fun stuff indeed, Especially because it comes back in a lot of different styles (but the styles may have the same source). But it also makes you wonder. In Pak Mei there is 9 step push and 18 mor kiu, but then it stops. Why? Has there been more after that building on the numberology, but is it lost? Wasn't there more and has something else been added later? 9 step, 18 mor kiu, mang fu, it just doesn't sound logical. I'm confused again........

Regards, Lau

[mantis108]

Long time no chat. I am well thanks for asking. I hope things are well with you also.

"In Pak Mei there is 9 step push and 18 mor kiu, but then it stops. Why?"

I am going to put forth a perspective which is solely my own. 18 and 108 are numbers traditionally associate with Lohan (Arhat) in Shaolin system. Arhat or Lohan is an awaken/enlightened individual. 18x9 is also conventional measurement to the smallest Kalari (training ground) in Kalaripayattu which might have brought to Shaolin by Bodhidharma. So then the 9 or 18 is a reminder that the practitioner (the metaphysical-physical being) is like a small kalari and the attainment is the Arhat-ship. Is Lohan the final achievement or you could still evolve?

"Has there been more after that building on the numberology, but is it lost? Wasn't there more and has something else been added later? 9 step, 18 mor kiu, mang fu, it just doesn't sound logical. I'm confused again........ "

There are very few people who understand and appreciate less is more. If you look at the 1-2-3 formula as mentioned before, Heaven is the smallest in number. It has fewer principles/building blocks yet myriad things are born of it. Take DNA for example, there are but 4 molecules yet they made up smallest wonder as amoeba and greatest wonder like human being. If Bak Mei is indeed a system of power generation, does quantity of techniques out weights quality of Ging (Tun To Fou Chum)? 4 internal, 6 external, and the 8 methods are they not already included in the Jik Bo? After 18 Mor Kiu, isn't it a new beginning with Meng Fu? I guess what I am saying is non attachment to attainment (a pattern) is mother of evolution. Otherwise we can't turn stone into gold.

Knowing you are among those who appreciate Jik Bo, I hope this helps.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Lau]

Hi Mantis108,

Long time no chat indeed. Life has been busy. Next month we're moving to a new house and that has been taking up a lot of time. But now I'll have a back yard to train, so I'm looking foreward to that.

But, just like in the "old" days, I still read read your posts with great interest. My knowledge in Pak Mei doesn't go further than Sip Pat Mor Kiu. And if I wouldn't have known that there was another form after that, than I would think that chi pu ken (straight step punch) / kiew bo toei (nine step push) / sip pat mor kiu (18 mor kiu) would be a nice complete system.

"After 18 Mor Kiu, isn't it a new beginning with Meng Fu? I guess what I am saying is non attachment to attainment (a pattern) is mother of evolution"

Do I interpret you correct that you say that chi pu ken / kiew bo toei / sip pat mor kiu is the main part of the system and that mang fu is to show you the importance of the Chi pu ken form? Sort of going "full circle". So to say "showing you that you've learnt everything allready". It sounds logical. That is that part you train the most. So it must be the core of the system. I would have thought that the last form would show me relaxation (if I ever learn it at all) and teach me the way how to use Pak Mei power more efficient for when I get older. But perhaps that is the same. Just looking at the fundamentals with a new view on things.

"If Bak Mei is indeed a system of power generation, does quantity of techniques out weights quality of Ging (Tun To Fou Chum)? 4 internal, 6 external, and the 8 methods are they not already included in the Jik Bo?"

I totally agree with this thought. Pak Mei is all about power generation. And it is taught in Chi pu ken (jek bo). The forms after that show you how to use that power in a few simple efficient techniques. Good that you mention the 4 internal, 6 external, and the 8 methods again. I haven't been thinking on these theories for some time now. I will try to put my thoughts on them straight again. See if I still know them... (I feel ashamed already)

Regards, Lau

[Tainan Mantis]

Hi Mantis108,
When Damo came to China Buddhism in India had 16 Arhats. The last 2 were added in China.