Shaolin Temple & Buddhism

[Citong Shifu]

Anyone else find this "I'll tell you later!" bull**** annoying?

If you find this so annoying, please dont reply. This thread was intended for those who want to discuss the different aspects of Shaolin Temple and its history...

[AJM]

Since the Jesuits landed in china in the early 1600's everything out of Shaolin has been tainted with their virus.

[unkokusai]

If you find this so annoying, please dont reply. This thread was intended for those who want to discuss the different aspects of Shaolin Temple and its history...

No, it was intended to be a self-indulgent opportunity for you to try to inflate your sense of self importance.

How do I know? Well, you just think about it for a while and I'll share my special, special answer later.

[Citong Shifu]

The point I'm making here is that one does not have to be or practice Buddhism to become highly skilled or master Shaolin Kungfu... Shaolin Temple has had a mix of doctorines throughout its history and kungfu development and none of these religions/philosophies made the kungfu of shaolin or monk any better at the martial arts.

Now, especially through Songshan lineage, they completely mislead the world with these types of statements. These attempts to control and monopolize shaolin kungfu, like SS's attempt to patent the "Shaolin" name, allowing wushu players to pose as monks, etc are all degrading to Shaolin as a whole.

Control is the real issue here... I agree that the SS lineage monks are the authority of there Temples kungfu, but not Shaolin as a whole. Take the Quanzhou Shaolin Temple, they're not making such claims as SS. Why not? Because they're not "mainstream"? LOL!

Before this gets into a heated debate, martial arts were brought to Shaolin Temple by many non-Buddhist masters, the best China had to offer. Without these masters efforts and skills, what would Shaolin kungfu be today?

Something to think about...

[Citong Shifu]

No, it was intended to be a self-indulgent opportunity for you to try to inflate your sense of self importance.

How do I know? Well, you just think about it for a while and I'll share my special, special answer later.

LOL! Another person who likes to listen to himslef....

[unkokusai]

LOL! Another person who likes to listen to himslef....

By "another" I hope you are including yourself among the group. Are you? Wait, don't tell me yet, build up the suspense and tell me later...

[ittokaos]

My voice is quite nice. At least that is what I have been told.

Interesting stuff!

My question is a bit off topic. (Citong Sifu) It says in your profile that you practice Fujian Kung Fu. Now is that simply styles practiced at the temple or styles that are said to come from that area(ie..white crane, wuzuquan,etc...)

What styles are they exactly?

Sorry for the intrusion. Please continue your bickering.

WF

[Citong Shifu]

My voice is quite nice. At least that is what I have been told.

Interesting stuff!

My question is a bit off topic. (Citong Sifu) It says in your profile that you practice Fujian Kung Fu. Now is that simply styles practiced at the temple or styles that are said to come from that area(ie..white crane, wuzuquan,etc...)

What styles are they exactly?

Sorry for the intrusion. Please continue your bickering.

WF

ittokaos,
There's no bickering nor debate with those who already know everything. Those who wish to close their mind's will always find themselves wanting.

The "Fujian/Fukien Shaolin Temple's styles" I train are Shaolin Louhanquan, Shaolinquan, & Shaolin Dishuquan which were taught through Hui Kai Monk's lineage. (here is a more recent chart)

Hui Kai Monk
Zheng Yi Shan
Zhuang Zi Shen - Cai Ruo Shui (trained with Zheng for a short period as well).
Cai Ying Xia (trained with Zhuang for 11 years as a private disciple)
R. Davenport (me. Private disciple of Cai yingxia)

For those who didn't know how Zhuang became a student of Zheng's, this will be interesting. Zhuang actually challenged Zheng to a match after hearing of his high level skills. At the time, Zhuang himself was regarded a high level teacher as well. Well, the day came and the challenge match began, ending with Zheng breaking Zhuangs leg with a Di shu technique. Zheng helped Zhuang recover (Zhuang was also a famous bone doctor) and eventually passed the Shaolin Di Shu style onto Zhuang....

Hopefully that helps...

[ittokaos]

Would you be able to PM with a better description of what is contained in your Shaolinquan?(sets,sub styles,animals used etc...) The reason i ask is the fact that almost everyone's ShaolinQuan differs.

Also, what is Dishuquan? Is it a form or a style?

Sorry for taking up your thread with my off topic questions. You are right about those with closed minds.

[Citong Shifu]

Would you be able to PM with a better description of what is contained in your Shaolinquan?(sets,sub styles,animals used etc...) The reason i ask is the fact that almost everyone's ShaolinQuan differs.

Also, what is Dishuquan? Is it a form or a style?

Sorry for taking up your thread with my off topic questions. You are right about those with closed minds.

Yeah, I'll pm you later tonight or tomorrow with some of the forms names, etc. Shaolin Di Shu is SH. dog boxing or ground boxing...

TTYL.
CS

[LFJ]

I never said that these religions/philosophies were "represented at one time".

you said they all had been "the doctrine of shaolin temple". i disagree. they may have been there, but were never the doctrine of the shaolin temple.

Shaolin like PRC cant let the lineage have holes.

really? why not? what has shaolin got to hide? the dharma can be picked up and set down by anyone at anytime.

everyone knows there have been periods where the temple was without an abbot, when various monks acted as abbot. but the dharma doesnt have holes.

this is chan, who cares?!

Everyone knows that in order to show purity, the lineage must not be distorted at all....

and what is this purity, and why is it so important? and who cares?!

The point I'm making here is that one does not have to be or practice Buddhism to become highly skilled or master Shaolin Kungfu...

if this is your only point you've been waiting to make, its kind of late. everyone knows that.

Shaolin Temple has had a mix of doctorines throughout its history and kungfu development

the shaolin temple had a mix of doctrines enter, just like that tibetan monk i know who holds tibetan buddhist services at a christian church. but just like the doctrine "of that church" remains of christianity despite whatever else has a presence there, the shaolin temple has always been a buddhist temple.

and none of these religions/philosophies made the kungfu of shaolin or monk any better at the martial arts

a statement made of your own observation or assumption? a philosophy that trains one to understand and control their mind would definitely help bring about improvement with greater focus in training. and why not?

its a proven fact that emotional states have effects on motor skills. try balancing drills, strength exercises, or even flexibility training when upset. you'll find your training will not be as effective and your coordination will be off. do you know anything about how the brain works and connects everything from emotions to motor skills?

Now, especially through Songshan lineage, they completely mislead the world with these types of statements.

thats a crock, my friend. no one has made such a statement. you have simply misunderstood the point.

i'm reminded of the shaolin ulysses documentary where shi xinghong was talking about shi suxi asking him how he thought his gongfu was. shi xinghong naturally said "not bad, pretty good"- to which shi suxi replied saying he thought xinghong would never become a really great practitioner. the reason being because his "heart was not silent enough, it was floating".

thats the reason! when you realize that and learn how to silence your heart and plant your feet on the ground you will immediately improve a great deal. suxi said nothing about "buddhism". he didnt say because you havent studied the buddha's word enough.

he said simply because his heart was not silent, it was floating.

and any path which leads to silencing the heart and planting ones feet on the ground will improve ones gongfu and allow them to reach a higher level of mastery.

so basically, your whole idea for this thread was way late. and you've misinterpreted much, or else were just misinformed.

but it was not unimportant nor unnecessary. so thanks for starting such a thread as a great reminder!

peace!

[Pk_StyLeZ]

its a proven fact that emotional states have effects on motor skills. try balancing drills, strength exercises, or even flexibility training when upset. you'll find your training will not be as effective and your coordination will be off. do you know anything about how the brain works and connects everything from emotions to motor skills?

i agree with this
emotional status does affect one training A LOT
usually students who are happy.....train much more harder and actually try to learn.....
students who are mad..just use their power like crazy and go all out
students who are sad...usually..dont try in class...and look so down...and lost..and just dont giv a rat ass.....
this is what i noticed

[richard sloan]

well, speaking as a member of the Songshan lineage, the revelation expressed here in the first post in the thread is ummm...a little moot...and not quite right. I certainly couldn't agree with it being said that cross pollination and sharing of concepts and ideas between Buddhists at Shaolin and others is 'hidden' knowledge, it certainly is not forbidden knowledge I would say it is rather public. But who the hell knows these days- r.Shaolin's monk, I'd like to know who that was. I think it's important to remember that just because someone took vows that might not mean their information is correct- yet, lol...in fact I just met a few of Yong Xin's disciples who had to be instructed to return "Amitabha" with an 'Amitabha.'

Anyway you can walk into our temple and see a wall scroll bearing a tripartate figure- buddha, lao tzu, and confucious. The artwork comes from Shaolin. I'm sure I have posted a pic of this in the forum before because when I first saw it I was quite taken with the image. It's pretty cool looking.

There are temples all over the place around Shaolin, a Daoist temple often sheltered monks during the CR, and vice versa. They participated in each others ceremonies and if you look you can find pictures of this...

Anyway anyone who has access to Shaolin would or should know there was this kind of exchange and I seriously doubt there is any kind of conspirational directive regarding the matter. It's quite open knowledge.

[richard sloan]

its a proven fact that emotional states have effects on motor skills. try balancing drills, strength exercises, or even flexibility training when upset. you'll find your training will not be as effective and your coordination will be off. do you know anything about how the brain works and connects everything from emotions to motor skills?

hence the cultivation of no mind and the flat heart, why hui ke was taken to drum mountain.

[Citong Shifu]

you said they all had been "the doctrine of shaolin temple". i disagree. they may have been there, but were never the doctrine of the shaolin temple.



really? why not? what has shaolin got to hide? the dharma can be picked up and set down by anyone at anytime.

everyone knows there have been periods where the temple was without an abbot, when various monks acted as abbot. but the dharma doesnt have holes.

this is chan, who cares?!



and what is this purity, and why is it so important? and who cares?!



if this is your only point you've been waiting to make, its kind of late. everyone knows that.



the shaolin temple had a mix of doctrines enter, just like that tibetan monk i know who holds tibetan buddhist services at a christian church. but just like the doctrine "of that church" remains of christianity despite whatever else has a presence there, the shaolin temple has always been a buddhist temple.



a statement made of your own observation or assumption? a philosophy that trains one to understand and control their mind would definitely help bring about improvement with greater focus in training. and why not?

its a proven fact that emotional states have effects on motor skills. try balancing drills, strength exercises, or even flexibility training when upset. you'll find your training will not be as effective and your coordination will be off. do you know anything about how the brain works and connects everything from emotions to motor skills?



thats a crock, my friend. no one has made such a statement. you have simply misunderstood the point.

i'm reminded of the shaolin ulysses documentary where shi xinghong was talking about shi suxi asking him how he thought his gongfu was. shi xinghong naturally said "not bad, pretty good"- to which shi suxi replied saying he thought xinghong would never become a really great practitioner. the reason being because his "heart was not silent enough, it was floating".

thats the reason! when you realize that and learn how to silence your heart and plant your feet on the ground you will immediately improve a great deal. suxi said nothing about "buddhism". he didnt say because you havent studied the buddha's word enough.

he said simply because his heart was not silent, it was floating.

and any path which leads to silencing the heart and planting ones feet on the ground will improve ones gongfu and allow them to reach a higher level of mastery.

so basically, your whole idea for this thread was way late. and you've misinterpreted much, or else were just misinformed.

but it was not unimportant nor unnecessary. so thanks for starting such a thread as a great reminder!

peace!

I dont want to go "tit for tat", but Shaolin (PRC) has much to hide and will continue to hiding the true facts. Purity, well modern Shaolin Temple has started this debate. As far as a philosophy that trains one's mind, I agree. I believe this is very important. My comment was made due to the restrictions placed on what philosophy/ies could be used...

Example - I also train and teach Ziranmen which is daoist. My sifu was a private disciple of Wan laishen. Now, when I first strarted training ZRM and its philosophy I quickly learned learned that 99% of the difference between my Shaolin and ZRM was strategy/ies. Sure, the philosophy was different but only by wording (like when two people are discussing the same thing but in diferent ways)... I guess one could totally take them in two different directions, of course, but the goal is to maintain simplicity.