wing chun grappling

[saifa5k]

Looking for a wing chun lineage that emphasis's grappling and joint locks. Lots of Yip Man styles put all their emphasis on chain punching and striking. I am curious as to whose lineage incorporates the throws and joint locks that are in wing chun. I think that sometimes its better to control an opponent than to just beat the hell out of them. Also joint locks and throws can be just as devasting as punches in my opinion. Can someone give me some info on some wing chun schools in the U.S. that teach the chin-na part of the art?
Dave

[sihing]

Sifu Gary Lam teaches chin na in his system, he calls it closing or standing grappling. He's located in Monterey Park, California (close to LA), www.garylamwingchun.com , call him, he's very open to talk to and always willing to answer your questions. I've trained there as well, it's basically a full time school, you live on the grounds and can get anywhere btwn 4 to 7 hrs a day of supervised training. Sifu Lam's level 1 is concerned with crossing hands (this is what Wing Chun is famous for, fast hands, trapping, chain punch, etc..), Sifu's level 2 is all about control and feeling, chin na is a part of the control aspect.

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Looking for a wing chun lineage that emphasis's grappling and joint locks."

***THEN you should check out WENG CHUN. A close cousin to wing chun but it emphasizes standing armlocks, throws, and sweeps. Punching and kicking are secondary to the standing grappling aspects of this art.

[LoneTiger108]

I have recently discovered that a few relatives of the Lee Shing Family are in the U.S, and anyone from this family will teach relatively useful grappling skills as we generally link this knowledge to our Pole/Stick and weaponry training.

Sifu Alan Lamb is highly recommended:

http://www.alanlambwingchun.com/

[t_niehoff]

Looking for a wing chun lineage that emphasis's grappling and joint locks. Lots of Yip Man styles put all their emphasis on chain punching and striking. I am curious as to whose lineage incorporates the throws and joint locks that are in wing chun. I think that sometimes its better to control an opponent than to just beat the hell out of them. Also joint locks and throws can be just as devasting as punches in my opinion. Can someone give me some info on some wing chun schools in the U.S. that teach the chin-na part of the art?
Dave

My view is that WCK -- regardless of lineage -- has the tools for controlling an opponent, as that is an integral part of WCK's method (which is essentially to control while striking, with the control and striking working together to enhance each other -- your control increases the effectiveness of your strikes, your strikes aid you in control). The chain punchers you refer to, with their Caveman WCK, are only using a very, very limited aspect of WCK. The difficulty is finding someone who knows -- and they only know if they can do it -- how to use the WCK tools to control an opponent. Anyone who has good WCK skills will have this aspect to their game. And as these skills/tools are integral to WCK's method, they should be taught/learned from day 1, as they are fundamental skills.

For a commercial product, Alan's DVD series (NHB Extreme WCK) explores this aspect. See, http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/produc...mwingchun.html

[Ultimatewingchun]

There is also something else to consider here, saifa...

Using standing joint and elbow locks, sweeps, and throws - while important to know, are difficult to get from a standing position against any kind of skilled opponent. Usually they will occur only after being set up by striking/controlling/unbalancing, ie.- a debilitating, or at the very least, a "stunning" type of strike has been landed - and then the lock, sweep, or throw.

[southernkf]

Hi Dave,

I don't think grappling and Chin-Na where often expressly taught by Yip Man. Others like Yuan Kay San people claim to have more in their system. I think others in Yip Man lines have added much to their system, especially after the popularization of MMA.

To go back to my comment that is surely to cause some discomfort, I don't mean to imply Yip Man wing chun has no Chin-Na. Quite the contrary. I think it is in the system, I just don't think that it self was taught specifically. I suspect it more rose opportunistically and probably wasn't valued as much as hitting by some. My view is that the chain punching you mentioned is very valuable in a certain context. But it is a lowlevel skill that in of itself can be learned very quickly. As is evident by the many discussions of the 1950's roof top challenges. But wing chun is much much more. And any decent teacher that really knows wing chun should be able to show you how to do more than "beat the hell out of someone".

I don't like throwing because it presents a problem, or atleast it can. If I take the trouble to get into contact range, I really don't want to get out of it. I think there is a dangerous area just outside where a good striker can easily outclass me. So if I get into my range I want to stay there. If I throw (depending on the type of throw of course) my opponent may be outside my range again. I am back at square one if he isn't hurt by the throw and gets up quickly. I perfer to control him. break down his structure and prevent him from countering. I hopefully can affect his balance, structure, and stability. I am not too interested in locking or trapping, but often the result is similar in that the person is unable to do much. Atleast that is the goal I am going for.

I think Chin Na itself is not lineage specific, so there is nothing specifically preventing you from using it in wing chun. Though I do think chin na specifically has a different goal and is applied somewhat differently, meaning some techniques may be at odds with some wing chun principles. But there I think you can use them as they present themselves and perhaps with some slight modifications.

[Liddel]

Anyone got any video links to VT specific grappling, even Demo stuff or the like ?

Im curious to see what the crux of it is about....PM me if you want it on the DL.

P.S Im in New Zealand so advice on going to see a class is just not an option.

Thanks
DREW

[YungChun]

In my book there's no such thing as "chain punching" in good WCK but there is punching.... In addition to other kinds of striking..

All VT does have controlling elements as T says, in addition to hitting, but hitting is also part of this control equation, if understood and done correctly--and controlling aspects can be very subtle and breif.. Striking at times may be all that's needed depending on the conditions...

How and when and what "other controlling tools" used is very much dependant on the skill/intent of the WCK person and how the opponent resists or not IMO..

[Know Stile]

Why not just cross train in Jujitsu or a chin-na specific art? I can't imagine wing chun grappling being better than an art that concentrates specifically on joint locks and the like.

[LoneTiger108]

Why not just cross train in Jujitsu or a chin-na specific art? I can't imagine wing chun grappling being better than an art that concentrates specifically on joint locks and the like.

I've heard this so many times, and I honestly feel for those WCK students who have to supplement their training with outside influences and styles. Even by understanding the natural personalities of the 'Snake & Crane' can open up the mind to why our style has grappling and control techniques. The famous 'Lap Sau' drill is the Wing Chun introduction to this idea, but knowing how to drill just one way has its limits, we have to look beyond one posture.

I once had a nice conversation with 2 leading BJJ teachers and a Silat guru who could see BJJ/Silat in what I was doing but I explained that I was just 'acting like a snake' and they laughed! 'More like a bloody Anaconda!' they said, and we sat and compared language and histories...

[YungChun]

I've heard this so many times, and I honestly feel for those WCK students who have to supplement their training with outside influences

Don't feel bad for them--rejoyce that they have chosen to widen their horizon and have the time, energy and money to do so..

No, style or system has alll the answers, in combat as in life there are far too many questions for one method, no matter how "good" to answer..

[LoneTiger108]

No, style or system has alll the answers, in combat as in life there are far too many questions for one method, no matter how "good" to answer..

I've always been of the opinion that Wing Chun IS all Martial Art. I have tried relentlessly to prove myself wrong, believe me, but I just can't.

I have trained with and seen pre-practitioners from other Wing Chun families be completely changed by simple words from a skilled 'Sifu'. I have seen teachers from other styles go blank with horror at certian types of questioning regarding their knowledge and comparisons to Wing Chun.

What I can't understand is why so many pre-practitioners feel 'let down' by their teachers, or feel that 'something is missing' from their Wing Chun. This is no reason to search other styels as nothing is missing IMHO, maybe it's just not been talked about openly for far too long...

[YungChun]

What I can't understand is why so many pre-practitioners feel 'let down' by their teachers, or feel that 'something is missing' from their Wing Chun. This is no reason to search other styels as nothing is missing IMHO, maybe it's just not been talked about openly for far too long...

You won't find too many folks around here that agree with this..

WCK is indeed a very cool martial art. However anyone IMO that is reasonable can see not only the limitations of the art but the fact that, like any art, it SPECIALIZES..

WCK is about being simple and direct and specializes in close range hand to hand and use of other (2) weapons work..

To appreciate martial arts you have to appreciate that each art specializes in a different kind of strategy or method.. Even styles that are very close like S. Crane and WC have a slightly different focus in terms of tactical and tool preferences..

If these two very similar arts in range and in connectedness are yet still different than how different is WCK from an art that isn’t even in the same family of methods?

How about Tae Kwon Do?

How about Kwok Sul?

How about Judo?

How about BJJ?

Are you going to tell us that WCK has BJJ in it?

Or are you going to tell us that WCK renders ground work meaningless because no good WCK person will ever find himself down on the ground?

It's true that one can find all kinds of movements in WCK and even some tactics that resemble other arts.. But when you are really fighting using your WCK you have to "decide" WTF it is you are doing or trying to do and that goes for training too.. Many of these other arts do not have the same core tactic that WCK does.. That's what makes WCK what it is and often what is MISSING from a lot of poor WCK training..

Other arts may have a completely different mindset and if you make the mistake of thinking that WCK is just any old thing (way) of fighting/training then you more than likely won't be able to use it to it's full potential.

All the old Chinese teachers of old used to always say: Never just study one style.. Why? The answer is very clear to those who can see more than the little space above the well they have fallen in...

No style or system or method was ever intended to answer all questions and any reasonable "master" or "teacher" will tell you that..

[LoneTiger108]

How about Tae Kwon Do?

How about Kwok Sul?

How about Judo?

How about BJJ?

Are you going to tell us that WCK has BJJ in it?

Or are you going to tell us that WCK renders ground work meaningless because no good WCK person will ever find himself down on the ground?

It's true that one can find all kinds of movements in WCK and even some tactics that resemble other arts.. But when you are really fighting using your WCK you have to "decide" WTF it is you are doing or trying to do and that goes for training too.. Many of these other arts do not have the same core tactic that WCK does.. That's what makes WCK what it is and often what is MISSING from a lot of poor WCK training..

Very interesting stuff here YungChun. Firstly I cannot tell you that Wing Chun has BJJ in it, or TKD or KS or even Judo, but if you think that all of these others styles do not understand core Wing Chun principles like Central and Straight Lines, Triangular/Circular Stepping, Legwork and so forth I think you're mistaken because they do. Which came first is another discussion completely.

I was simply replying to 'Know Stile' (No Style?)

What I was trying to highlight here, which again I apologize for going off the subject of the thread, is the simple London saying:

'A Jack of All Trades is a Master of None'.