wing chun grappling

[unkokusai]

Travel to the orient (don't forget travel and medical insurance).

LOL! Says the guy who 'trains' by himself in the basement! LOL!

[forever young]

reading those mega posts are Hardwork8 all right!!!! ok Hw8 you have convinced me, you ARE the second comming of christ and you and your sifu have ALL the answers so where do i sign up?
oh and by the way wrighting lots of 'stuff' dont make you clever, right OR funny so try and cut down on the fluff and actally point out some wing chun grappling, some proof of your abilities in kung fu and last but not least some proof of your sifus kung fu working, as you are the one makinh the claims that 1, wing chun has grappling 2, you are the real deal, 3 your sifu is the real deal.
its real easy just grab your fone now and quickly film yourself doing some bag or jong or better still chisau'ing or the real icing on the cake film some sparring or 'R34L fighting. if not then stfu cause you are getting boring with nothing really substantial to say other than "wahwahwahwahwah" which is what it sounds like anyway!!!!!

[Ultimatewingchun]

"oh and by the way writing lots of 'stuff' dont make you clever, right OR funny"


***NO, but it does make him a great antidote for the biggest troll on the wing chun forum!

[YungChun]

***NO, but it does make him a great antidote for the biggest troll on the wing chun forum!

If that's the antidote then give me the disease. LOL

[HardWork8]

LOL! Says the guy who 'trains' by himself in the basement! LOL!

That is fantastic, you actually managed to remember the number "8" and not only that you put number 8 in the right place, which was at the end of what you, in your retarded mind thought was my name. Great, I knew 2 circles on top of each other would not be a big challenge, not even for a spastic like you.

Now, lets go back to the letter "H", ok now, just as always don't drool and concentrate and lets go HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

[HardWork8]

If that's the antidote then give me the disease. LOL

I believe that you already have the disease.

[HardWork8]

reading those mega posts are Hardwork8 all right!!!!

I am sorry about that, but I have feeling that you can use the (mind) exercise.

ok Hw8 you have convinced me, you ARE the second comming of christ and you and your sifu have ALL the answers so where do i sign up?

Second coming of christ???? I doubt if there was a first coming of Christ, let alone a second. I believe that you are reading too much into my posts. My main point is that there are grappling and ground fighting techniques in Wing Chun, and that this art is richer than many people think, that is all .

oh and by the way wrighting lots of 'stuff' dont make you clever, right OR funny

I write "lots of stuff" because short and simple explanations don't seem to work with some of the less evolved members of the forum.

so try and cut down on the fluff and actally point out some wing chun grappling, some proof of your abilities in kung fu and last but not least some proof of your sifus kung fu working,

I have responded to a similar request earlier in the thread, if you care to read it properly.

as you are the one makinh the claims that 1, wing chun has grappling 2,

Yes it does, as do other major kung fu styles. I am surprised that you don't seem to know about the existance of grappling in kung fu.

you are the real deal,

I'll tell you what I am, I am a student of traditional kung fu.

3 your sifu is the real deal.

Oh yes he is.

its real easy just grab your fone now and quickly film yourself doing some bag or jong or better still chisau'ing or the real icing on the cake film some sparring or 'R34L fighting. if not then stfu cause you are getting boring with nothing really substantial to say other than "wahwahwahwahwah" which is what it sounds like anyway!!!!!

The problem with people like you, who are unaware of the simple fact that there is grappling in kung fu, is that you won't know good kung fu from the bad ones.

Secondly, one can go on forever "proving" facts to people such as yourself and all that one will get is that "it is fake", or that "wouldn't work for real" ,etc.

Furthermore, there is nothing to prove. All I have done is describe my Wing Chun practice in this thread and expressed my opinion on modern cross training as it effects ones core art of Wing Chun (kung fu).

If you had any knowledge about Wing Chun, or kung fu in general, then you appreciate that my comments are not so out of this world. I mean, the existance of grappling in kung fu surprises you? That there is more to Wing Chun striking than chain punching seems to surprise others. That kung fu sifus can fight, seems to give Mr "T" a shock. Come on.

I am not talking about jumping over tall buildings, long range dimmak or beating up a 1000 guys in one go. What I have stated is basic knowledge as far as I am concerned. If there are people who don't even know of these basic facts, perhaps they shouldn't be "contributing" in kung fu forums. Or if they are, then they should be a little more willing to accept other people's kung fu experiences.

They may also re-examine their kung fu schools, if indeed that is what they claim to be practicing.

Now, as I mentioned in an earlier post, one which I will request that you find and read, my sifu will be putting up the official school web site on the net soon. There will be more details about the lineage and training in Siu Lam Wing Chun. When the site gets onto the net, I will let you guys know.

[HardWork8]

As for me and my training in WSL/GL VT, it has changed my whole outlook on things Wing Chun related, and I feel very fortunate to be able to learn what I am learning and from the people I am learning it from. It is a process of continued devleopment and discovery within myself.

That is a very significant statement (I have exactly the same sentiments). It is something very personal and comes from taking your kung fu practice seriously and in a profound way and opens your mind to countless possibilities of kung fu both in combat and in life general. However, it is a statement that cannot be "proved" nor displayed on You Tube, so I don't know how some of our fellow forum contributors will take it.

[t_niehoff]

The problem with people like you, who are unaware of the simple fact that there is grappling in kung fu, is that you won't know good kung fu from the bad ones.

Of course there is grappling in "kung fu" and WCK, but that is stand-up, not on the ground (the game changes when you hit the ground).

You keep saying that others can't tell good "kung fu" from bad -- well, there is only one way to tell, and that is via performance fighting, seeing whether people can do what they train to do. You can keep repeating that these people exist, but that doesn't make it so. These are just empty claims. Anyone can make those claims. And lots of deluded people do.

Secondly, one can go on forever "proving" facts to people such as yourself and all that one will get is that "it is fake", or that "wouldn't work for real" ,etc.

You've offered nothing -- absolutely nothing -- in the way of evidence to support your claims, but then argue no amount of evidence would convince us. And this is you projecting your mindset: because nothing could convince you that you have bought into the fantasy and are deluded. Evidence could convince me. All I need to see is that a person can do those things they train to do against a competant fighter as they train to do them, and I'll know they are for real. And those people exist -- in the functional martial arts. You can see boxers, MT fighters, BJJ fighters, MMA fighters, etc. all do exactly that. So we know it can be done. And we also know that we never see traditionally-only trained people able to do it.

Furthermore, there is nothing to prove. All I have done is describe my Wing Chun practice in this thread and expressed my opinion on modern cross training as it effects ones core art of Wing Chun (kung fu).

A person's view is only as sound as the evidence it is based on. You've not been able to provide any evidence, only stories, legends, etc.

If you had any knowledge about Wing Chun, or kung fu in general, then you appreciate that my comments are not so out of this world. I mean, the existance of grappling in kung fu surprises you? That there is more to Wing Chun striking than chain punching seems to surprise others. That kung fu sifus can fight, seems to give Mr "T" a shock. Come on.

This is your favorite dodge: "if only you knew" (which, of course, suggests that you do). This is a dodge TMAists use to sell nonsense. Fairies exists you poor ignorant fools, if only you knew what I know! OK, so show us the fairies. Prove it. But, you reply, there is no need to prove it, you won't believe it anyway (hard to argue with a fairy before me). And, you say, I don't need to prove anything (you should, I guess, be able to claim anything). Moreover, you say it isn't your burden to prove fairies exist, but up to us to prove they don't! You are up the fantasy-river without a critical thinking paddle.

BTW, of course kung fu sifus can fight. Anyone can fight. It's just that if you don't train like modern fighters do, you won't develop much in the way of fighting skills. TMAists don't train like modern fighters, they use a "method" of training that isn't particularly good, that hasn't produced good results, and is based on a poor and incomplete understanding of how human beings best learn and develop athletic skill and performance.

I am not talking about jumping over tall buildings, long range dimmak or beating up a 1000 guys in one go. What I have stated is basic knowledge as far as I am concerned. If there are people who don't even know of these basic facts, perhaps they shouldn't be "contributing" in kung fu forums. Or if they are, then they should be a little more willing to accept other people's kung fu experiences.

Your "basic knowledge" is mainly fantasy-based. And you can offer no evidence to prove otherwise.

They may also re-examine their kung fu schools, if indeed that is what they claim to be practicing.

Maybe, that's what you should be doing.

Now, as I mentioned in an earlier post, one which I will request that you find and read, my sifu will be putting up the official school web site on the net soon. There will be more details about the lineage and training in Siu Lam Wing Chun. When the site gets onto the net, I will let you guys know.

Just what we need, more WCK fantasy on the net. Great.

[HardWork8]

Of course there is grappling in "kung fu" and WCK, but that is stand-up, not on the ground (the game changes when you hit the ground).

There is ground fighting in Wing Chun as well as in some other kung fu styles. I am getting tired of repeating myself. Do you and Unkokusai share the same parents, who happen to be cousins? Oh, nevermind.

You keep saying that others can't tell good "kung fu" from bad -

others and YOU. But how can you? You have no base of reference. Your only experience has been Mc Wing Chun, you poor soul.

- well, there is only one way to tell, and that is via performance fighting, seeing whether people can do what they train to do.

Exactly. So take your camera and go to a good kung fu kwoon.

You can keep repeating that these people exist, but that doesn't make it so.

And you can keep repeating that they don't. It doesn't make it so either.

These are just empty claims. Anyone can make those claims. And lots of deluded people do.

Are you talking about my claims or yours?

You've offered nothing -- absolutely nothing -- in the way of evidence to support your claims, but then argue no amount of evidence would convince us. And this is you projecting your mindset: because nothing could convince you that you have bought into the fantasy and are deluded.

Nothing will and that is because unlike you I have managed to find an authentic kung fu school.

Evidence could convince me.

So take your camera and go and challenge a few dozen kung fu, karate and whoops, I almost forgot, japanese jiu jitsu masters. Those who seek evidence should search for it.

All I need to see is that a person can do those things they train to do against a competant fighter as they train to do them, and I'll know they are for real.

You claim to be a competent fighter who is able to throw kung fu fighters around like "rag dolls". So take your camera and go to the nearest China Town and find a kung fu school and throw their sifu around like rag doll. Then repeat that with a few dozen sifus, not forgetting to film the event.

And those people exist -- in the functional martial arts.

And in the TMAs.

You can see boxers, MT fighters, BJJ fighters, MMA fighters, etc. all do exactly that.

I have too, and they do that well in the sports arena.

So we know it can be done.

Yes "we" do.

And we also know that we never see traditionally-only trained people able to do it.

Because, "we" never challenge them.

A person's view is only as sound as the evidence it is based on.

Exactly. And I have told you have you can find the evidence that YOU seek.

You've not been able to provide any evidence, only stories, legends, etc.

You believe the fact that a kung fu exponent has fought challenges from other styles and won, to be so far fetched as to call it a LEGEND? Boy, are you lost.

This is your favorite dodge: "if only you knew" (which, of course, suggests that you do). This is a dodge TMAists use to sell nonsense.

Ok, ok. Lets change it to, "if you had only had an experience" of something other than Mc Kung Fu, so that your criticisms would be at least informed and not just based on sports competitions and personal prejudices.

Fairies exists you poor ignorant fools, if only you knew what I know!

Maybe they exist in the MMA, but all the kung fu guys I know are straight.

OK, so show us the fairies. Prove it

.

Oh, please, please don't. I'll take your word for it, honest.

But, you reply, there is no need to prove it,

I thought I just did.

....(hard to argue with a fairy before me).

No need to argue. Just tell him that he is not your type.

Moreover, you say it isn't your burden to prove fairies exist,

Of course not. I was not discussing fairies. You are the one who brought them into the discussion, just like you did the ninjas and Big Foot for christ's sake.

I described the type of Wing Chun that I practice. I also added that kung fu sifus can fight. You stated that they can't and you also demonstrated ignorance of TMA training methods.

You also demanded evidence that kung fu exponents can fight, so I told you where you can find the evidence and that is in an authentic kung fu if you challenge them. Since then you have been doing everything to avoid the issue and insist on bad mouthing not just Wing Chun but all other traditional kung fu, karate styles and now jiu jitsu, and without any evidence I might add.

You are up the fantasy-river without a critical thinking paddle.

I am on a boat, where you seem to be drowning in the same river.

BTW, of course kung fu sifus can fight. Anyone can fight. It's just that if you don't train like modern fighters do, you won't develop much in the way of fighting skills.

That opinion is based on ignorance.

TMAists don't train like modern fighters, they use a "method" of training that isn't particularly good,

For the sports arena, of course.

that hasn't produced good results,

in the sports arena, again.

and is based on a poor and incomplete understanding of how human beings best learn and develop athletic skill and performance.

You mean the type that is useful in the sports arena, of course.

Your "basic knowledge" is mainly fantasy-based. And you can offer no evidence to prove otherwise.

The "evidence" is out there, and I have already told you how you can get that evidence, so run along, take your video camera and find that evidence through some challenges.

Maybe, that's what you should be doing.

The more I come accross people like you, the more I know and appreciate my training in real kung fu and in a real kung fu school. After all, who knows where I would have ended up if my first experience of kung fu was Mc Kung fu, as was yours.

Just what we need, more WCK fantasy on the net. Great.

You are showing us who you really are aren't you. You demand "evidence" to the point of obssession. When I tell you how you can find it through real challenge fights with real kung fu sifus/masters. You refuse, avoid the subject and make excuses.

Then when I present another possibility, which would have been the web site, that would provide at least some info for the curious and even an avenue for further inquiery, you turn around and call it "fantasy".

You are not here to learn, you are here to "teach". This is a Wing Chun thread. Your knowledge of Wing Chun is limited to Mckung fu, meaning that you have nothing to teach.

Now, as you have nothing to add, as far as Wing Chun is concerned, and obviously nothing to learn, as in your misguided mind you think that what you do is better than kung fu.

Bottom line is that you have nothing to teach, as this is not a MMA forum. So why don't you stop yapping in the WC threads and save it all for your fellow MMA fairies?

[t_niehoff]

Of course not. I was not discussing fairies. You are the one who brought them into the discussion, just like you did the ninjas and Big Foot for christ's sake.

Sure you were -- they all have one thing in common: people who believe in them despite the lack of evidence. You are talking about things as though they exist, when you can't provide any evidence that they do.

I described the type of Wing Chun that I practice. I also added that kung fu sifus can fight. You stated that they can't and you also demonstrated ignorance of TMA training methods.

You described your fantasy. You are not "practicing WCK" unless you are fighting with WCK. Yes, you keep telling us about the WCK sifus that can fight -- sure they can, just not very well. Do you think that repeating "I do beleive in fairies, I do, I do" proves faires exist? Show us the fairies. Where are these traditional kung fu men that fight well?

You also demanded evidence that kung fu exponents can fight, so I told you where you can find the evidence and that is in an authentic kung fu if you challenge them. Since then you have been doing everything to avoid the issue and insist on bad mouthing not just Wing Chun but all other traditional kung fu, karate styles and now jiu jitsu, and without any evidence I might add.

You haven't provided any evidence, just your claim. This is what you've done: There are great fill-in-the-blank masters that can fight really well. There's a claim for you. Don't believe it? I've seen them, take my word for it. What? Won't take my word? Well then, just go out and seek out "reputable" fill-in-the-blank schools and fight with them, you'll see (what makes them reputable? they can beat you - can't you get a circular argument?). None of that is evidence. And it tries to shift the burden of providing proof on to me.

And what you also don't get is that the lack of evidence is evidence -- the lack of results is evidence.

I am on a boat, where you seem to be drowning in the same river.

You are in a fantasy-land.

For the sports arena, of course.

in the sports arena, again.

You mean the type that is useful in the sports arena, of course.

What does the venue matter? If someone has fighting skills -- if they can, for example, deal with realistic strikes -- won't they work in the gym, a ring, or the street? You said your sifu sparred with "accomplished martial artists", right? Were these street-fights to the death?! LOL! If he can spar with people, and that is proof of his skills, why can't he fight in a ring, or in a gym, and prove his skills? By your reasoning, that sparring wouldn't be proof of anything.

The "evidence" is out there, and I have already told you how you can get that evidence, so run along, take your video camera and find that evidence through some challenges.

This is like saying there are fairies out there, just go look for them! Why can't you provide any evidence? You're the one claiming they exist.

The more I come accross people like you, the more I know and appreciate my training in real kung fu and in a real kung fu school. After all, who knows where I would have ended up if my first experience of kung fu was Mc Kung fu, as was yours.

The truth is as close as your nearest MMA gym.

You are showing us who you really are aren't you. You demand "evidence" to the point of obssession. When I tell you how you can find it through real challenge fights with real kung fu sifus/masters. You refuse, avoid the subject and make excuses.

I demand evidence when people like you cite fantasy as truth. That's when I say prove what you are saying. Repeatedly telling me "real kung fu sifus/masters" exist isn't providing proof, it is just repeating your fantasy claim.

Then when I present another possibility, which would have been the web site, that would provide at least some info for the curious and even an avenue for further inquiery, you turn around and call it "fantasy".

"Providing some info for the curious" isn't evidence. You CLAIM your WCK has groundfighting. OK, prove it, prove that you guys can do the things you train to do in fighting/sparring with some competant fighters as you train to do them. Don't justrepeat that you can or that you have "real wing chun", prove it, show me. First, get some competant proven fighter, like MMA fighters, BJJ or sambo fighters, then show me you can use those things you train to do to defeat them. Don't tell me it is up to me to wonder around the world looking for some mythical WCK person who can do that. You made the claim, so prove it. We all know that you can't. That your claims are BS. And your telling me to search to seek out these people is just your way to avoid admitting that you can't provide proof. You are just another in a long line of TMA frauds.

You are not here to learn, you are here to "teach". This is a Wing Chun thread. Your knowledge of Wing Chun is limited to Mckung fu, meaning that you have nothing to teach.

No one is going to learn anything from fantasy foo guys like you.

Now, as you have nothing to add, as far as Wing Chun is concerned, and obviously nothing to learn, as in your misguided mind you think that what you do is better than kung fu.

I practice WCK, and have longer than you and probably longer than your sifu. But I don't practice fantasy fu. The bottom line is that it is not the art but how you train that develops skill.

Anyone who really (unlike you) trains in a ground method (BJJ, sambo, etc.) will tell you that the skills needed to fight successfully on the ground include the pins, the escapes, the submissions (even if you don't use them you need to know themso as to not get caught), the guard work (passing, holding, etc.), etc. These are not in WCK. Moreover, besides this technical gap, skill on the ground comes only from lots and lots of quality sparring (rolling), which means sparring with good ground fighters, which WCK also does not do.

If you think WCK prepares you for the ground, just go to a good MMA school and spar. Have your sifu do that. You'll both be spanked.

Bottom line is that you have nothing to teach, as this is not a MMA forum. So why don't you stop yapping in the WC threads and save it all for your fellow MMA fairies?

I'm not trying to teach (though apparently you are). I'm merely showing that you don't know what you are talking about.

[reneritchie]

Hi Dave,

Yuen Kay-San's lineage assimilated the standing joint locks and throws of Fung Siu-Ching's system.

Having done some other grappling-oriented arts over the years, however, these are completely different approaches. They still follow all the WCK concepts, and so tend towards being faster and more damaging than those that want to control and restrain (though, like anything, you could adapt them for that purpose, or find someone who has and can share that experience).

It's nothing like judo, bjj, aikido, eagle claw, etc. though.

[HardWork8]

You are talking about things as though they exist, when you can't provide any evidence that they do.

They exist. Kung Fu has functional fighting techniques. You are the one who doubts this and therefore you are searching for evidence in an internet forum. What I am telling you is: go to a kung fu kwoon and challenge a sifu and see for yourself about the evidence. It is more hands on than looking for videos on the net.

Yes, you keep telling us about the WCK sifus that can fight -- sure they can, just not very well.

How would you know if they can't fight very well. How many have you challenged and beaten?

Do you think that repeating "I do beleive in fairies, I do, I do" proves faires exist? Show us the fairies.

You seem to be obssessed by fairies. Did you have a dominant mother?

Where are these traditional kung fu men that fight well?

They are in their kwoons, where I told you they would be, passing on their knowledge. All you have to do is take your video camera and go and find out for yourself, easy.

You haven't provided any evidence, just your claim..And it tries to shift the burden of providing proof on to me.

You put the burden of proof on yourself, when you started to make your idiotic comments, not just about Wing Chun, but all kung fu styles.You generalised about arts you seem to know very little about, implying that your "functional" training would enable you to beat them and even throw them around like "rag dolls".

My response? PROVE IT. If you are bold enough to say that there are no competent Traditional kung fu stylists on the face of the planet, then go and defeat some, and show us. Otherwise, shut up. Or better, go and contribute in MMA forums.

And what you also don't get is that the lack of evidence is evidence -- the lack of results is evidence.

Again, I have the evidence. He who seeks evidence should go where the evidence is. The evidence is not on the internet. Any "evidence" on the internet can be interpreted in different ways. However, if someone kicks your ass, or you kick theirs then there is only one interpretation.

You are in a fantasy-land.

Make up your mind. I know that it is no easy when you are drowning, but am I on a fantasy land or am I on a boat?

What does the venue matter? If someone has fighting skills -- if they can, for example, deal with realistic strikes -- won't they work in the gym, a ring, or the street?

There are many differences between a sports arena and the street.

In the sports arena:

You can call it no holds barred all you want, but there are rules.

There is a referee.

You are not fighting on cement.

There is time for psychological preparation.


Compare the average duration of a sports bout & a street fight. You will see one of the differences.

I don't believe it, I even have to explain such things to a "functionally" trained fighter such as yourself.

You said your sifu sparred with "accomplished martial artists", right? Were these street-fights to the death?!

No, stop fantasising, they came to where he was training and challenged him. No one died. On other occasions there were street fights.

If he can spar with people, and that is proof of his skills, why can't he fight in a ring, or in a gym, and prove his skills?

Prove to whom, and for what reason?

By your reasoning, that sparring wouldn't be proof of anything.

By my reasoning, fighting in a sports arena proves that you are good at fighting in a sports arena. Of course, this can also reflect positively in a street situation, no one is denying that.

This is like saying there are fairies out there, just go look for them! Why can't you provide any evidence? You're the one claiming they exist.

And you are making the outrageous claim that they can't fight, so why don't you prove that they cannot fight, by going to where they train and challenging them, the kung fu fighters, not the fairies.

The truth is as close as your nearest MMA gym.

The truth is even closer, in your nearest kung fu kwoon. You forget, I am not saying that MMA cannot fight. You are the one saying that kung fu and all TMA cannot fight and by implication you can beat them all in fighting. So, the burden of proof is on you, so off you go with your camera.

I demand evidence when people like you cite fantasy as truth. That's when I say prove what you are saying. Repeatedly telling me "real kung fu sifus/masters" exist isn't providing proof, it is just repeating your fantasy claim.

I train with a real kung fu sifu. So, I have the proof. You don't, furthermore, you claim that there aren't any. So I demand the proof, so go and find some real sifus and challenge them to NHB fights.

You CLAIM your WCK has groundfighting. OK, prove it, prove that you guys can do the things you train to do in fighting/sparring with some competant fighters as you train to do them. Don't justrepeat that you can or that you have "real wing chun", prove it, show me. First, get some competant proven fighter, like MMA fighters, BJJ or sambo fighters, then show me you can use those things you train to do to defeat them. Don't tell me it is up to me to wonder around the world looking for some mythical WCK person who can do that. You made the claim, so prove it.

For the last time. There is ground fighting in the lineage of Wing Chun that I practice. It has grappling aspects, but it also has a striking side to it. If my sifu was living anywhere near you, I am sure he would happily show it to you.

No one is asking you to fight "mythical" kung fu exponents. Fighting real ones will do. You made the idiotic comments, implying that you could beat all TMAists with your "functional" MA. So you go and prove it.

We all know that you can't. That your claims are BS. And your telling me to search to seek out these people is just your way to avoid admitting that you can't provide proof. You are just another in a long line of TMA frauds.

I can't provide you proof sitting behind my computer. Neither can my Wing Chun sifu, who is sitting in Brazil. But since your criticism was not limited to Wing Chun, and included other kung fu styles, then I believe, that it would be more "functional" for you to go and prove that kung fu is "ineffective" in kwoon near you.

No one is going to learn anything from fantasy foo guys like you.

Not with that attitude, you're not.

I practice WCK, and have longer than you and probably longer than your sifu. But I don't practice fantasy fu. The bottom line is that it is not the art but how you train that develops skill.

Exactly, and you do it in the traditional way. Any changes to the methods must still correllate with Wing Chun's principles.

BTW, having trained McWing Chun for longer than anyone in the world does not make you better,nor does cross training in irrelevant arts, it just makes you more gullible and unfortunate.

Anyone who really trains in a ground method will tell you that the skills needed to fight successfully on the ground include the pins, the escapes, the submissions (even if you don't use them you need to know themso as to not get caught), the guard work (passing, holding, etc.), etc.

You are wrong. Once a again. Can't you be right just sometimes, just to make this discussion interesting?

There are aspects of wrestling that are not present in Wing Chun, but there are aspects of WC ground fighting that are not present in the wrestling arts.

[/QUOTE=t_niehoff]These are not in WCK.[/QUOTE]

Moreover, besides this technical gap, skill on the ground comes only from lots and lots of quality sparring (rolling), which means sparring with good ground fighters, which WCK also does not do.

Whatever techniques learnt in WC are also drilled in sparring. WC is not a ground fighting art but has ground fighting aspects and training. If you take down a WC exponent you are taking down a striker with ground fighting capabilities and not a wrestler. We are talking about different arts.

If you think WCK prepares you for the ground, just go to a good MMA school and spar.

Honestly speaking I would be spanked IF I am taken to the ground, because, as I mentioned in a previous post, I have not reached my ground training stage in WC.

Have your sifu do that. You'll both be spanked.

I'll be honest with you here too. I believe anyone trying to take him down will have a good chance of being knocked out cold. The object in WC is not to go down and fight on the ground. The ground fighting training prepares you in case you end up on the ground.

I'm not trying to teach (though apparently you are). I'm merely showing that you don't know what you are talking about.

You criticise an art which you know nothing about. You have trained in Mc Wing Chun and you feel qualified to criticise not only Wing Chun, but all the kung fu styles on the face of this planet, and I am not the one who doesn't know what he is talking about?

I suggest, YET AGAIN, if you don't think that traditional kung fu is effective, then go and challenge some tradtional kung fu sifus, otherwise keep it shut from now on.

You are posting in KUNG FU FORUMS, I don't know what it is that you are trying to prove, but it will have something more to do with your psychological state rather than your martial one.