Yin shou gun

[Jingwu Man]

Someone just told me that Yinshougun is not actually a Shaolin form, but was imported because it fit well and was a good beginner form to learn, and that originally it was Qi mei gun that was the starter form.
Can anybody tell me more about this? Is it true?

[TaichiMantis]

If it is the same as yum sao gwan or yam shou gun, it is a mantis pole form. It's one of my favorites. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTCzzFsp95I

Grandmaster Chui Chuk Kai of Tai Chi Praying Mantis was in charge of many Jingwu schools in Vietnam, Macau, and Hong Kong.

Whether or not TCPM can be traced back to Shaolin, or even if this form is one of the original mantis weapons forms...I don't have a clue.

[GeneChing]

If the legends are to be believed, Shaolin absorbed the bulk of its forms from external sources. Surely you've heard the old "sanctuary to political refugees" tale. What made Shaolin special was that it was a repository, or perhaps academy in the true monastic sense of the term, for the martial arts. Many of Shaolin's most famous forms probably originated elsewhere, but Shaolin incorporated them into their curriculum. They still do that today. It's part of the tradition of Shaolin. So when you say something is 'not actually a Shaolin form' I'm not sure what you mean.

Yinshougun is referenced as one of the five Shaolin staff forms in Shaolin's earliest extant manual, Cheng Zongyou's Exposition of the Original Shaolin Staff Method, which is dated at around 1610 CE. So it's been attributed to Shaolin for the last four centuries. It's also worthy of note that a major thrust of Cheng's book was to establish these five forms as authentic Shaolin staff forms. This was in reaction to a proliferation of non-Shaolin staff forms that bore the Shaolin moniker. Considering that this was an issue four centuries ago, that gives you some perspective on how old the discussion of 'what is authentic Shaolin and what isn't' is. It's been part of our tradition for at least twice the age of the United States of America.

[Jingwu Man]

Ah, thanks a lot Gene!

Some people were telling me it was a recent import to the temple, like since the latest reconstruction, and I was pretty incredulous.
It's a great staff form and really has that Shaolin flavour, which is why I was so shocked to hear that perhaps it wasn't.

What are the other four authentic forms that were listed?

Taichimantis: Thanks! Not the same form, but it's interesting to see it. What does the name of the form mean? Yin shou gun means soft or negative (as in yin/yang) hand staff, referring to the palm down grip in a lot of the form.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hl6-6SS_iDo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=up2iJryOFYc

I just wanted to make sure and check with those in the know.
Glad I did!

[TaichiMantis]

Ah, thanks a lot Gene!

Taichimantis: Thanks! Not the same form, but it's interesting to see it. What does the name of the form mean? Yin shou gun means soft or negative (as in yin/yang) hand staff, referring to the palm down grip in a lot of the form.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hl6-6SS_iDo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=up2iJryOFYc

I just wanted to make sure and check with those in the know.
Glad I did!

Yum Sao Gwan(cantonese pronunciation) = Negative Grip 2 Ended Staff
We also have Tang Lang Yim Yuen Gun = Yin-Yang Stick which I haven't learned yet...

But with CCK's association with Jingwu, I don't know if it was a mantis form brought to Shaolin or a shaolin form he incorporated in his mantis. Maybe Robert (mantis108) would know... But now that I think about it, I'm sure other styles have their version of a "negative grip" staff form...I just don't know how far back our versions go.

[GeneChing]

Cheng lists five staff forms: yinshou, xiaoyecha, dayecha, pai and chuansuo. I've seen all but the last one demonstrated at Shaolin Temple at one time or another. I might have even seen chuansuo, but just not known it.

BTW, I'm currently learning a variation of yinshougun from Shi Yanfei. The latter half of his form is completely different than what most everyone is practicing nowadays. It's very interesting.

[LFJ]

We also have Tang Lang Yim Yuen Gun = Yin-Yang Stick which I haven't learned yet...

there is a shaolin yinyanggun as well. this is the only video i've been able to find of it: http://www.56.com/u73/v_MTU1MjM4Nzg.html

BTW, I'm currently learning a variation of yinshougun from Shi Yanfei. The latter half of his form is completely different than what most everyone is practicing nowadays. It's very interesting.

i've seen these types of forms, but they looked just like an extended version of yinshougun. but the extra movements also seemed modernly created. it didnt have the same feel as regular old yinshougun when it changed. but it was still very cool.

[Shaolin Wookie]

If the legends are to be believed, Shaolin absorbed the bulk of its forms from external sources. Surely you've heard the old "sanctuary to political refugees" tale. What made Shaolin special was that it was a repository, or perhaps academy in the true monastic sense of the term, for the martial arts. Many of Shaolin's most famous forms probably originated elsewhere, but Shaolin incorporated them into their curriculum. They still do that today. It's part of the tradition of Shaolin. So when you say something is 'not actually a Shaolin form' I'm not sure what you mean.

Oh, okay. I guess Shaolin-Do was right after all........


Welcome to Hell! Man is it cold in here. Is that snow?

[Yao Sing]

I learned it at Shaolin in 1998 and it's mostly the same as the posted videos with minor differences. I've seen it done quite a few different ways so who knows which one is 'correct'.

[GeneChing]

There's a literalism in forms transmission that's simply absurd. It's something that many students do because they only grasp the skin, so to speak. Assuming each form has meaningful interpretations, they could all be correct. Or they could all be incorrect, depending on the lack thereof. It's not about the literal moves. It's about the transmission. Think to Bodhidharma and his take on the sutras. It wasn't about the literal transmission of the words of the sutras. It was about the transmission of chan. You can change the words. Sometimes you have to change the words. Obviously the words had to be changed so they could translated into English. As long as the chan is there, you can say what you like.

[tattooedmonk]

Oh, okay. I guess Shaolin-Do was right after all........


Welcome to Hell! Man is it cold in here. Is that snow?

you crack me up

[RenDaHai]

Yin shou gun,

It has been in shaolin long enough to be considered Shaolin whether it was first created there or not.

Since 'yin shou' refers to both hands holding the staff in the downwards grip, this is a very common name for a staff form, that and 'yin yang gun' where the hands oppose. I wouldn't be surprised if many styles have a yin shou gun.

Yin Shou is the most common stick form in shaoin. Lots of schools add some extra moves to make it cooler, but in reality it is a fairly simple form.

It may interest you all to know that there are at least 3 forms, YIn shou gun yi lo, er lo, san lo... this is certain, I also heard there were 6 from another source but I am not sure.

YeCha gun has 5 forms (2 xiao, 2 Da and another). All similar, it tends to use the staff likea spear... shaolin gun should be 30% staff, 70% spear according to old maxims.

[UK MONK]

hay all, need some help with some research and thought that the forum would be the best place to come.

im looking for info on ing shou gun. any info would help me. iv studied the form for 4 years but still dont know that much about it. iv tried wiki, google and youtube but didnt get much info so here i am.

who made the form?
how old is it?
has it changed over the years?
is there a modern equivalent?

thanks guys.

[LFJ]

im looking for info on ing shou gun. any info would help me. iv studied the form for 4 years but still dont know that much about it. iv tried wiki, google and youtube but didnt get much info so here i am.

who made the form?
how old is it?
has it changed over the years?
is there a modern equivalent?

spelling it as yinshougun would possibly help.

in the ming dynasty general yu dayou (俞大猷, 1503-1580) visited shaolin monastery and passed on the stick methods trained by his troops to the shaolin monks. the monks through generations then blended those methods with what they already had and came out with the yinshougun set, so it goes.

so it is at least from late ming since it is also recorded in the "exposition of the original shaolin stick methods" (少林棍法阐宗) from around 1610.

basically it is at least a late ming dynasty creation then, but it has a section that comes from shaohuogun (烧火棍), "tending fire stick", from the yuan dynasty, credited to monk jinnaluo (紧那罗).

the section also shows up in the ming dynasty set fengmogun (疯魔棍), "crazy devil stick", which is identical to shaohuogun until halfway through. this was created by monk zhishan (智善) who expanded the original 19 postures of shaohuogun into 25 postures.

this sequence may have been monk zhishan's addition or jinnaluo's original 19 posture creation, placing that in at most the yuan dynasty, and at least the ming. but yinshougun also shares the same strategy as fengmogun- the "crazy" (feng), inverted (yin), logic of the sets. it belongs to the lost tracks boxing (mizongquan 迷踪拳) system. fengmogun using drunken arhat stepping.

so it is obviously most related to the fengmogun set from the ming dynasty. it is possible that monk zhishan who lived in the 1500's, about the time of general yu dayou's visit, also created yinshougun. but it may have just come from other monks still in the ming dynasty who used the older sets in its creation.

[GeneChing]

Spain GT not
America-s-Got-Talent. We have a Britain GT thread which has more posts but no Spain one yet - maybe I should just merge them all.



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