Training with law enforcement officers

[Water Dragon]

How long you been a cop, Bro? Why, it seems just yesterday you were a snot nosed lil kid on Mousel's.

[Mas Judt]

And again, different tools for different toolboxes. If I'm a cop, I may need to engage in that type of a situation, should it occur. I'm a civillian, so I need to disengage. Truth be told, if a guy has a knife, I'm gonna know it and leave. No, I'm not gonna know he has a knife specifically, but I'm gonna know something's going on.

I would not bet my life on this. You will only know if it's coming if you face an amateur, just like stepping into the ring with a 'point' karate guy. You'll 'know' you can beat him. But, the technique as it refines for sport and the rules of sport lose their basis in reality, just as fantasy techniques get created by those who believe themselves to be super-deadly, with no experience to base it on. Instinct and experience with bad people helps, but real skill helps too.

Also consider, that you may not have the choice to disengage. Then what? What if your training made you great in the ring, but wide open against a skilled, aggressive attacker that wants to eat your kids and rape your car? Can you rely on a good shoot? Or pulling to gaurd? - Maybe. But these are not high percentage moves when you must assume weapons.

Training is a circle. The current MMA fad is a wonderful, needed evolution. But the myth that it prepares you for combative fighting is just that. (Although it still does a much better job than about 90% of the 'martial arts' schools I have seen.)

The one great benefit from training with cps is situational knowledge.

[Water Dragon]

I would not bet my life on this. You will only know if it's coming if you face an amateur, just like stepping into the ring with a 'point' karate guy. You'll 'know' you can beat him. But, the technique as it refines for sport and the rules of sport lose their basis in reality, just as fantasy techniques get created by those who believe themselves to be super-deadly, with no experience to base it on. Instinct and experience with bad people helps, but real skill helps too.

Now, I'm not saying I can pick up if a guy has a knife. I'm just saying I can pick up that's something's 'off', and if I do, I'm not sticking around to find out what's exactly off about the situation. People who are planning something are just a lil too on. A lil too friendly, a lil too nervous, a lil too shady somehow. I'm just saying if you pick up on that, leave, before whatever has a chance to happen happens. I'm not arguing about how to engage, I'm arguing getting the fu.ck outta Dodge before you have to engage.

[Mas Judt]

Which is the ultimate self defense. Don't be there.

[Water Dragon]

*snatches pebble*

[DragonzRage]

"How long you been a cop, Bro? Why, it seems just yesterday you were a snot nosed lil kid on Mousel's."

LOL!! Yep those were the days... back when I was trying to convince my mom that I was the reincarnation of Bruce Lee. Been a cop for about two and a half yrs now. Man I barely ever look at this forum anymore, and when I do I rarely post anything. But when I do take a peek here, its always nice to see the OGs like you, Knifefighter, SevenStar, and others still here keepin it real haha.

[Tai-Lik]

Okay, the following happens. These clip are not to criticize what the officers could have done different tactically to avoid the situation. I think the discussion relates to self defense training in law enforcement:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyImzvt6UT4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21CUmU01Nv8

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

That cop needs Tai Tzu training. His suspect was wide open for the second technique in the Tai Tzu 32 move form. It's an arm wrap followed by a takedown in which you throw the opponent by his face.

Not only was the suspect wide open for it, he was pulling in that direction anyway, so he actually would have helped the officer throw him by his face.

In addition to that, the kid I know who is a collegit wrestler taught me a really nasty armbar that you can easily flow into from there that would give the officer a submission, followed by another minor change up giving him a free hand to cuff too.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Okay, the following happens. These clip are not to criticize what the officers could have done different tactically to avoid the situation. I think the discussion relates to self defense training in law enforcement:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyImzvt6UT4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21CUmU01Nv8

Real world fighting is messy and chaotic.
The first order for an armed cop is to keep his firearm away from the attacker ( typically right side back) and as such, sometimes things are harder to do because of it.
As for the second clip, striking someone and knocking them out/down is something that comes with LOTS of training and lets face it, the average cop doesn't put in the time.

[GeneChing]

I did two past cover stories that were police oriented. The first was Magnum FORCE: Meet Grandmaster Alexander Tao, Founder of China's Police Combat Method, Jing Quan Dao in our 2001 January/February issue. The second was with my own teacher, To Protect and To Serve: Master Tony Chen Teaches Kung Fu Secrets to Police in our 2004 March/April issue.

I've always thought police restraint techniques are a fascinating application of martial arts. The goal state is different than most people expect. Cops aren't supposed to Rodney King anyone, so that limits their techniques. Their actions cannot be perceived as excessive force to our ever-watchful youtube community. Additionally, they have a lot of hardware on their belts, so that another factor. Can't let a perp grab your gear, especially not your piece. I'm always looking for more police oriented submissions, but most of the real trainers aren't too forthcoming for many legal reasons, which is perfectly understandable.

[Water Dragon]

Gene Ching advocates the police hang their weapons from their crotches.

[Yum Cha]

Gene Ching advocates the police hang their weapons from their crotches.

Actually, I think he advocates use of an alternative Baton...

[TaichiMantis]

Real world fighting is messy and chaotic.
The first order for an armed cop is to keep his firearm away from the attacker ( typically right side back) and as such, sometimes things are harder to do because of it..

Thanks, I wondered when someone would bring that up. Reminds me of some cases here where the cops had their guns taken (and yes, a couple were females).

Kind of brings new meaning to "guard position"...

[Tai-Lik]

Gene Ching:

I've always thought police restraint techniques are a fascinating application of martial arts. The goal state is different than most people expect.

Yes this is very true.

Cops aren't supposed to Rodney King anyone, so that limits their techniques. Their actions cannot be perceived as excessive force

there are scales or levels of force that we use to justify measures or techniques we use to protect ourselves, others, and make arrest. The misconception by many people is that an Officer should only use techniques to restrain an arrestee. Excessive force is always a concern for police officers, so this is where scales or levels of force training comes in.

but most of the real trainers aren't too forthcoming for many legal reasons

Yes. i would suggest that martial arts instructors check out their local jurisdictions "Use Of Force Continuum" because you'll probably see that the same legal responsibility can be applied to civilians in any "self defense" situation. It will also give you a better understanding of your own rights, boundaries, limitations, when, how.... in situations where you have to use what you've learned in the Kwoon, dojo, or gym.

When discussing or teaching self defense techniques used in law enforcement, the level of force and when to use such force/technique should accompany the technique being explained.

Officers can used grappling, wrestling, striking, etc. at certain stages. The key is to identify and articulate each stage so the whatever technique you use is considered "reasonable".

This year jujitsu, krav magav, and shuai jiao are the popular styles being taught in our area. Next year it may be something totally different.

btw, cops nowadays eat Power Bars instead of donuts (at least not in public)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Thanks, I wondered when someone would bring that up. Reminds me of some cases here where the cops had their guns taken (and yes, a couple were females).

Kind of brings new meaning to "guard position"...

A friend of mine mentioned how some of the moves taught to the Japanese Police are right out of old school JJJ because they took into account the ****ibility fo t he opponent trying to grab the wakizashi, all they did was modify the side because firearms are carried typically on the right as opposed to the left for the wakizashi.
Don't know if its true or not.