Training with law enforcement officers

[Tai-Lik]

Water Dragon wrote:

Police need to restrain people. They need a way to get them on the ground, and control them to get cuffs on. They need a way to make beligerant people comply in less extreme situations. There's a number of ways to get these skill sets. I don't think this is really that big of a focus for most cops anyway. They have mace, sticks, tasers, and handguns availible to them most always, and things lot shotguns and swat teams if things get really bad.

i think there is misconception that Police must attempt to restrain people in every situation and that mace, sticks, SWAT .....are always available or that there is always time to pull out these weapons. When a criminal is resisting arrest passively, restraining & controling techniques are necessary, however if a situation quickly or unexpectedly advances to active aggression stage (assaulting the officer), the officer now finds himself in fight just like anyone else except for the fact he is wearing weapons that can be used against him. if the officer can get to his lethal or non-lethal weapon depending on the situation, without it being used against him that's wonderful, but this is not always the case. this is not a good time to be worried about handcuffing or restraining techniques
the reality is that most officers have there firearms and other weapons taken from them while attempting to restrain criminals who are actively aggressive towards the officer.

[Tai-Lik]

I train with a few too. One of them has actually fought MMA. It's different than training for self-defense or for the ring he says. Not to snipe, but he says he would never try and use pressure points in a fight or sd situation, but he uses them in his job for compliance. Kind of like a 'come along'.

good point. in today's society with the increase of officers being assaulted, it is very important for officers to be able to use restraining techniques when appropriate and use other hand techniques such as striking as well when a situation esculates. it doesn't matter whether it's MMA or whatever, as long as it addresses the different levels of resistance that officers face.

"come alongs" and pressure points are used during "passive" or non-compliance situations. when a criminal is attacking an officer it is now a self-defense situation. situations officers face are not always at restraining level.

put on a uniform with oc spray taser, asp. , gun and then have someone on meth who happens to be larger surprise attack you. imagine this while you attempt to restrain him and also imagine what could happen as you attempt to pull out your asp baton during this time. you would probably have to strike or get away in order to have time to pull it out.

[1bad65]

"come alongs" and pressure points are used during "passive" or non-compliance situations. when a criminal is attacking an officer it is now a self-defense situation. situations officers face are not always at restraining level.

That's how he put it too. I just could not type it so to the point.

The weapons issue really changes things too. You have to not only defend yourself if assaulted, you have to 'defend' your weapons from possibly being taken from you as well.

[rogue]

put on a uniform with oc spray taser, asp. , gun and then have someone on meth who happens to be larger surprise attack you. imagine this while you attempt to restrain him and also imagine what could happen as you attempt to pull out your asp baton during this time. you would probably have to strike or get away in order to have time to pull it out.

At least LEO's don't have to face multiple opponents.

[Water Dragon]

Water Dragon wrote:

however if a situation quickly or unexpectedly advances to active aggression stage (assaulting the officer), the officer now finds himself in fight just like anyone else except for the fact he is wearing weapons that can be used against him.

I agree with this 100 %. Notice I mentioned Judo and Shuai Chiao. I've trained both and think they work great for cops. Especially if they go for your weapon. O Soto Gari for you today!

But now we're back to the central idea of having to train consistently in some type of a competetive environment. This is definately a similarity between civilian and military needs so much. And let's face it, O Uchi Gari looks a lot better legally than a few thai kicks the the leg and an elbow to the dome. He went for my weapon, Sir. We started wrestling around for it, and we both fell. I landed on top of him thank God or I might not be here today But ya gotta train, and a lot of cops don't.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

The interesting thing about this, is dealing with thugs, and arresting people actually does count as training experience, so they really don't need as much skill work outside of thier active duty schedules as one might think.

[Water Dragon]

Ya know, you got a point there. My question would be, how often do those situations actually occur. Anyone got the answer to that?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

In the mid 90's I was learning Long Fist, and Sun Bagua privately from a cook County Sheriff. He got into stuff like that almost daily.

He still practiced skills with his group 1, and on occasion 2 times a week, in addition to shooting and his morning conditioning before his shift.

Every month or so, he would do a seminar on new techniques. From what I gathered, it sounds like he would learn something new at a seminar, then work it til he got it once a week with his guys. Then he'd forget it and move on to something else as his daily job gave him all the practice he needed after the initial learning curve was done.

The only other practice he got was tossing me around, like a rag doll, but I think that was just for fun.

When I knew him, he was not actively practicing his long fist. His once a month lesson was in his Sun style bagua,

[Mas Judt]

Well, I can cite a buddy of mine who is now an operator in Afgahnistan, an ex-Antioch cop (a crappy town on the SF Bay) - I first saw him demonstrate his H2H and i asked where did he learn Pukulan? He didn't. A few lessons in less than stellar MA and a LOT of street practice. He's really a genius, as most 'street-trained' have trouble against 'skilled' - but I also saw him take on all comers - and ruthlessly dispatch them.

So - yeah, they often get it in the street. However, as I have long advocated, and as demonstrated on the Human Weapon (Where Jason Chambers was smacked around by a rebar wielding marine when he tried to pull guard or stabbed repeatedly by an Israeli special forces guy when attempting a shoot) that most sporting techniques sacrifice usefulness in reality in favor of winning in the street. A balance of live training needs to be balanced with actual understanding. You have to know what your goals are and have someone who knows what they are doing to guide you.

Both Judo & Shuai Chiao (I'd add Sambo) are great as they teach you what it feels like to face resistance - something most with no competitive experience will crumble under.

However, for police/military training, I highly recommend a tool-using art such as good school of Kali or Silat or Kun Tao that features 'live work' in their training.

[Mas Judt]

FWIW - out of the dozens of peace officers I have known, only a few had any real skill. But the few who did were top-knotch. Largely because they took training seriously.

On the other hand, the needs of a civilian are very different. Most of my inteactions with Leo's consisted of uncomfortable aghast chuckles followed by 'we wouldn't be allowed to do that.'

But - over the past twenty years, the BASIC stuff LEO's are taught has improved dramatically.

[jdhowland]

i think there is misconception that Police must attempt to restrain people in every situation and that mace, sticks, SWAT .....are always available or that there is always time to pull out these weapons. When a criminal is resisting arrest passively, restraining & controling techniques are necessary, however if a situation quickly or unexpectedly advances to active aggression stage (assaulting the officer), the officer now finds himself in fight just like anyone else except for the fact he is wearing weapons that can be used against him. if the officer can get to his lethal or non-lethal weapon depending on the situation, without it being used against him that's wonderful, but this is not always the case. this is not a good time to be worried about handcuffing or restraining techniques
the reality is that most officers have there firearms and other weapons taken from them while attempting to restrain criminals who are actively aggressive towards the officer.

I have to agree with this. A cop acting without backup is particularly vulnerable. A friend of mine was killed by his own weapon after holstering it and going for his radio, instead. He had decided that the suspect was not beligerent.

Most cops have long stretches between violent encounters. Those working at jails and pre-trial booking institutions sometimes have to deal with more frequent violent situations than the arresting officers experience. The minutes after the restraints are removed can be intense.

I've been doing this work long enough that I think I can give one bit of advice to LEOs who train or to the people who train them: Don't try to grab a flailing limb and try your chin-na or aikido technique; go for the gross motor skills. Extension succeeds where flexion fails. Those trained in the "Tibetan" styles know what I'm talking about. Power and structure training such as found in yiquan or many other Chinese systems have a slight advantage over more technique-driven systems in building this kind of skilled response.

Be safe this holiday season.

John

[Water Dragon]

So - yeah, they often get it in the street. However, as I have long advocated, and as demonstrated on the Human Weapon (Where Jason Chambers was smacked around by a rebar wielding marine when he tried to pull guard or stabbed repeatedly by an Israeli special forces guy when attempting a shoot) that most sporting techniques sacrifice usefulness in reality in favor of winning in the street. A balance of live training needs to be balanced with actual understanding. You have to know what your goals are and have someone who knows what they are doing to guide you.

And again, different tools for different toolboxes. If I'm a cop, I may need to engage in that type of a situation, should it occur. I'm a civillian, so I need to disengage. Truth be told, if a guy has a knife, I'm gonna know it and leave. No, I'm not gonna know he has a knife specifically, but I'm gonna know something's going on. I guess I got hyper sensitive to my environment living where I did, but you can pick up on stuff like that. People just act different when they have the mindset of doing something. If you get that feeling that's something off, listen to it and leave. If we're talking 'self defense' that's what we should be focusing on. Especially when we're dealing with things like rape prevention and defense for the elderly.

-edit-

FWIW - out of the dozens of peace officers I have known, only a few had any real skill. But the few who did were top-knotch. Largely because they took training seriously.

On the other hand, the needs of a civilian are very different. Most of my inteactions with Leo's consisted of uncomfortable aghast chuckles followed by 'we wouldn't be allowed to do that.'

But - over the past twenty years, the BASIC stuff LEO's are taught has improved dramatically.

Oops, I didn't read this before I wrote what I did or I would have just posted, "Yeah, what he said."

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

And again, different tools for different toolboxes. If I'm a cop, I may need to engage in that type of a situation, should it occur. I'm a civillian, so I need to disengage. Truth be told, if a guy has a knife, I'm gonna know it and leave. No, I'm not gonna know he has a knife specifically, but I'm gonna know something's going on. I guess I got hyper sensitive to my environment living where I did, but you can pick up on stuff like that. People just act different when they have the mindset of doing something. If you get that feeling that's something off, listen to it and leave. If we're talking 'self defense' that's what we should be focusing on. Especially when we're dealing with things like rape prevention and defense for the elderly.

Reply]
I agree. I have gotten into some really good fights when I was young (I seem to have an innate ability to **** people off without meaning to). I eventually learned to see the signs long before anything occurred, and just remove my self to a less vulnerable position.

The last actual fight I got into was about a year and a half ago. I had to step in to protect a girl from her out of control boyfreind in a bar. In that case it wasn't even a serious fight, I just got in close, and controlled his knife hand so he was not able to deploy it in the first place. I know the guy, and he allways has one on him in his rt frnt pocket. My other hand was on his shoulder, and I positioned my lower body so if he tried anything, I would have thrown him.

The other one I was ready to, but he backed down. That was very recently, a few weeks ago. Both times a stand up grapling, like Shui Jiao would have been the best way to handle things.

[Tai-Lik]

Ya know, you got a point there. My question would be, how often do those situations actually occur. Anyone got the answer to that?

It depends on your assignment and the area you work. Officers assigned to narcotics street units or warrant fugitive units may encounter this on a weekly basis. Hopefully encounters are limited by officer safety and man power issues, but this is not always the case. In a pefect world, you always have enough officers working each shift and you always have back up. If your assigned to the booking area where you have to secure all your weapons before entering, you likely to have this experience sometime during your career even with all the best safety measures. I don't think the issue is how often each individual officer has violent encounters, i think the issue is being prepared for all levels of encounters including those which may be violent hand to hand.

Most officers i know or work with are training martial arts outside the regular training course provided in our departments and btw most of us don't eat donuts

Due to the types of people that officers encounter, an officers perspective on self-defense techniques and what works may be alittle bit different than others. He understands that someone may call him on it. personally i would not wast my time training something that couldn't work for me.

For LEO i would recommend learning restraining/compliance techniques, striking, wrestling and ground escapes because you don't want to be on the ground with a weapon or while someone else can jump on during the fight. An Officers mind set should be on NOT going to the ground or how to escape from the ground. knowing retention techniques standing or on the ground are import. knowing how to restrain or hold the suspect who is attacking you until back up arrives or you catch your breath would be a good idea too

[DragonzRage]

The stuff that I learned in the academy and the stuff that seems to be most prevalent across all departments and agencies (at least here in the L.A./SoCal area) is Krav Maga and MMA based (albeit MMA applied to practical street type situations). Systematically, I think its very good stuff. The problem is that by and large we don't get to practice it enough. For example in my dept, I think we only have dept mandated training bi-annually. And the bi-annual training is basically a several day refresher course and work shop. Granted we do regularly apply stuff hands on out in the field, practicing and learning technique twice a year just isn't enough to develop good proficiency. There are a good number of people who train on their own time and are very proficient, but the majority do not.

But regardless of that, I think that any experienced and competent street cop can be a very proficient 'martial artist' even if he's not extremely technical in terms of unarmed fighting skills. Martial skills/attributes that any good cop possesses, such as good common sense, situational awareness, understanding the streets you're walking on, being able to think quickly and act decisively under pressure, good communication skills, etc will save your skin far more often than your marksmanship or your Jiu Jitsu. I can think of a number of more experienced officers that I work with who I would tool on the mat or in the boxing ring, but are still far better warriors than I am. Because these guys have the knowledge and experience to be able to comfortably walk into and handle high threat situations that might overwhelm a 2.5 year boot like me.

Cops are not UFC fighters, and most cops would probably find it pretty impractical to spend a large amount of their time training those skills. Sure MMA proficiency would be helpful, but so would extra training in tactics, building searches, active shooter scenarios, etc etc. In the end there's only so much time in your life to dedicate to training, and only those who have a personal interest in MA training are going to spend a load of time on it. I've been in plenty of physical scuffles on the job, but most of the critical life threatening 'oh $hit!' situations I've been in have had nothing to do with h2h fighting.

As an example: I was patrolling by myself, driving down the street one night and see a group of people standing around outside their car, which is apparently stalled or has a flat tire or something. As I get closer I suddenly realize that this group of $hitheads matches the exact description of an armed robbery that occurred less than half an hour ago, involving a group of five-six gang types armed with at least one long gun and one handgun. I'm just rolling by as I realize this, and several of these guys look right at me and make eye contact. By the look on their faces I know that these guys are worried about getting caught, and so I'm sure they are the robbery suspects. I'm alone, there's at least five of them, and they have at least two guns (probably more). I'm thinking they may very well decide to light me up before I can put it out my location on the radio.

Its situations like that one that are the most dangerous. What do you do when you're in a situation like that? I can tell you for **** sure there are no answers in Muay Thai, Bjj, Kookoo Ryu Karate-Do or whatever other style. So in the end you need to place the importance of those skills into perspective.