Disadvantages of sparring?

[IRONMONK]

I'm not anti-sparring but I would like to see everyone opinions on the disadvantages/limitations of sparring?

[t_niehoff]

I'm not anti-sparring but I would like to see everyone opinions on the disadvantages/limitations of sparring?

The main disadvantage/limitation is in not understanding how it fits into our developmental process.

It is very difficult to learn a new fighting skill (i.e., be able to physically perform it comfortably and reliably) in a high pressure, realistic environment like sparring. Too many other things will be going on for you to be able to focus your attention on that new thing. So unrealistic drills and exercises, like chi sao for instance, which don't correspond to the realities of fighting, enable us to learn and develop new skills (to the point of "knowing" them).

But, realistic fighting skills (being able to use those thingss we learned under realistic conditions) only come from realistic practice, which means either realistic sparring or realistic drilling (which are 'snippets' or'situations' from sparring that are repeated so as to concentrate on that specific skill).

And, btw, another problem with sparring is that often what is called "sparring" is really play (pretend) fighting, where what is being done is not realistic (doesn't correspond to what will really go on in a fight). Play fighting is just another unrealistic exercise and can't develop realistic skills.

[k gledhill]

sparring with gloves and head gear can lead one to believe a fight will last longer than they do for real...jaws break, noses get smashed, teeth shatter ,eyeballs ooze gook over your thumbs and things get really bloody real quick [ good stance, blood is slippery] kicking for real can make your partner a cripple in the blink of an eye....giving pain and lots of it , that is what sparring is teaching you and how to avoid it .....but like T said its palying to get used to the idea of violence. You are training to become violent and administer pain in a scientific manner , not cave man style
Sparring one on one always leads you to believe this is how a fight happens , start sparring 2-3 guys regularly and imagine anyone has a knife , first come first served avoid wrastling unless you have no choice.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm not anti-sparring but I would like to see everyone opinions on the disadvantages/limitations of sparring?

The pros outweight the cons in sparring, but there are some concerns that shoudl be addressed.
Most are aware of the "intent" issue so as long as one realizes what they are doing and WHY, they should be fine.
Hard contact sparring can, and some say should, lead to injuries and as such there is down time involved.
Full contact sparring is a different issue.
Most often than not, protective gear is the solution, but also can be the problem in some cases.
Nevertheless, hard sparring ( with the contact level high enough to keep reactions honest) is crucial in learning what works and what doesn't for you.
Again, the pros (many) outweight the cons(few).

[william]

Speaking from experience:

I did two years of wing chun, no sparring, drills chi sao, etc etc Then moved and went to a kickboxing class.

With gloves on facing someone else who wanted to fight me (a situation that is not that unrealistic in real life) I got my ass kicked. First thing the guard we had used was always hands out in front, any one with any boxing skills will just go straight through that. The idea of chain punching any one just seemed so unrealistic, anyone who is slipping ducking and weaving throwing well timed jabs, cross etc, chain punches were a bit of a joke.

There is far to much emphasis on attacker 'leaving the arm out'. Since my experience I now train with boxing, kickboxing and BJJ. I was an ardent kung fu guy, but there came a point when I looked at it and thought, I am doing this not for physical exercise, or to make friends, but to learn how to look after myself. The old adage of kickboxing BJJ being a sport and it being different on the street, may be true, but my bets are that an MMA would do better than a Kung fu guy in a 'street situation'. I am generalizing I know, but in my short time with kung fu 75% of the time was spent doing drill routines, against partners holding their arm out, and not fighting back. I still do drills, but now there is always a live component and much much more time spent live i.e. sparring, whether on the ground or standing. after a few month with the boxing MMA I felt much more confident than I had with two years of wing chun.

What i think about the question? To anyone who hasn't sparred much, go find a friendly boxer or BJJ guy, and ask to have a spar. If you feel confident that your skills were effective, fine, if not you may want to re evaluate your reasons for training?

W


I really think MMA has changed things, those guys are the most skilled fighters in the world, perhaps like the kung fu masters of old. Perhaps years ago the guys who very best at fighting were the kung fu guys, more experience more challenge matches etc. Now I think the top MMA guys re the kung fu "hard work" masters

[LoneTiger108]

I really think MMA has changed things, those guys are the most skilled fighters in the world, perhaps like the kung fu masters of old. Perhaps years ago the guys who very best at fighting were the kung fu guys, more experience more challenge matches etc. Now I think the top MMA guys re the kung fu "hard work" masters

What makes you think that any 'Kung Fu Master' was the best Fighter in the World? How many Masters do you know would admit to fighting for competition, points or prize money?

Actually, more to the point, is a Kung Fu Master to be judged on 'fighting in a cage'? Would a Kung Fu Master allow his/her students fight in this way? What for?

MMA has done no more than Bruce Lee did. It has helped the minority learn something and the majority learn nothing! Nobody has all the answers, and I personally feel that competitive fighting is a great tool to gauge progress for the young, not so great to exhibit the skills gained in later years...

[unkokusai]

sparring with gloves and head gear can lead one to believe a fight will last longer than they do for real...jaws break, noses get smashed, teeth shatter ,eyeballs ooze gook over your thumbs and things get really bloody real quick [ good stance, blood is slippery] kicking for real can make your partner a cripple in the blink of an eye....giving pain and lots of it , that is what sparring is teaching you and how to avoid it .....but like T said its palying to get used to the idea of violence. You are training to become violent and administer pain in a scientific manner , not cave man style
Sparring one on one always leads you to believe this is how a fight happens , start sparring 2-3 guys regularly and imagine anyone has a knife , first come first served avoid wrastling unless you have no choice.

So much in that post...

[t_niehoff]

What makes you think that any 'Kung Fu Master' was the best Fighter in the World? How many Masters do you know would admit to fighting for competition, points or prize money?

Certainly none of them have proved they could fight worth a bean.

Actually, more to the point, is a Kung Fu Master to be judged on 'fighting in a cage'? Would a Kung Fu Master allow his/her students fight in this way? What for?

How can you determine any person's fighting performance (skill) level, their ability to really use their "kung fu" for example, except by fighting and with really good people? You can't know if you are a good fighter if you don't fight and don't fight with really good people. This is true for any athletic activity.

MMA has done no more than Bruce Lee did. It has helped the minority learn something and the majority learn nothing! Nobody has all the answers, and I personally feel that competitive fighting is a great tool to gauge progress for the young, not so great to exhibit the skills gained in later years...

There are huge differences between the Bruce Lee and the MMA phenomena. The first was largely fantasy driven, the second reality driven.

I agree that competitive fighting is a young person's game. As you get older, your body can't take and recover from that level of training, abuse, etc. that it puts on you. However, fighting skills are only gained by fighting. Dan Inosanto earned his BJJ BB at 70, and he was constantly out on the mats sparring to earn it. He gained it (the skills) in later years, but he gained it the same way as the younger folks do.

[LoneTiger108]

How can you determine any person's fighting performance (skill) level, their ability to really use their "kung fu" for example, except by fighting and with really good people? You can't know if you are a good fighter if you don't fight and don't fight with really good people. This is true for any athletic activity.

I can only repeat myself again;

"Actually, more to the point, is a Kung Fu Master to be judged on 'fighting in a cage'? Would a Kung Fu Master allow his/her students fight in this way? What for?"

[t_niehoff]

I can only repeat myself again;

"Actually, more to the point, is a Kung Fu Master to be judged on 'fighting in a cage'? Would a Kung Fu Master allow his/her students fight in this way? What for?"

I find this sort of statement to be a hilarious example of TCMA silliness.

A person can only be judged by his performance in fighting. Whether it is in a cage, in the gym, in a ring, etc. it really doesn't matter. After all, if you can fight at a high elvel in a cage, you can fight at a high level anywhere. If you can't fight well, the venue won't make a difference.

The other laugh is the "allow his/her students" part. If his/her students aren't fighting, then they will have no fighting skill. And, any "student" who allows their "Master" to tell them what they can or cannot do is a sheep.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I can only repeat myself again;

"Actually, more to the point, is a Kung Fu Master to be judged on 'fighting in a cage'? Would a Kung Fu Master allow his/her students fight in this way? What for?"

Why would a master be against students testing their skills in a real fight or as close to it in a controlled environment that one can get ?

[osprey3883]

Hello,
IMO your approach to sparing has a lot to do with what you gain. If you go in with the attitude of "point sparing" or the idea that one landed blow leads to a reset IMO you are training with the wrong mindset. One blow rarely finishes a fight, IMO you need to take a "beat down" mindset into any sparring session.

Matt

[k gledhill]

So much in that post...

that reply speaks volumes

[nschmelzer]

I train wing chun right now. I love wing chun for a lot of reasons. But the more I train, and older I get (and see people come in and out of the martial arts, get injured, get bored, get fat, etc.) - the more I have come to believe that combat fighting (sports or real) is at least 50% purely mental. That is, someone with a lot more "skill" can get beat by someone with a lot more "killer instinct" (also called "heart").

Of course, the one that has the killer instanct, and can channel that instinct into techinques, well, that person is a great fighter. Unfortunately, most martial arts programs neglect this 50%+ "killer instinct" factor. Probably because you either "get it" or you don't. It is hard to teach the killer instinct. (By the way - this instinct applies in most types of competitive sports).

It is also part of my experience that a person's "killer instinct" is only revealed when it is "under fire." That is, you don't know whether someone has the killer instinct until that person takes a few punches to the face, or kicks to the body. How they react will show how much killer instinct they have. Will they turn their heads? Will they collapse? Will they retreat? Will they drop their hands? Or will they smile? Or will they act like nothing happened? Or will they stay focused on what they are trying to accomplish (e.g., inflict some hurt on the other guy)?

Assuming combat success (sport or real) is mostly (50% or more) a function of one's mind and mental attitude (again, one man's opinion), the question becomes: Does sparring help people get or cultivate the killer instinct? Or does it water down a person's killer instinct with pads and rules and half-hearted techniques?

In my opinion, both responses are 100% correct.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I train wing chun right now. I love wing chun for a lot of reasons. But the more I train, and older I get (and see people come in and out of the martial arts, get injured, get bored, get fat, etc.) - the more I have come to believe that combat fighting (sports or real) is at least 50% purely mental. That is, someone with a lot more "skill" can get beat by someone with a lot more "killer instinct" (also called "heart").

Of course, the one that has the killer instanct, and can channel that instinct into techinques, well, that person is a great fighter. Unfortunately, most martial arts programs neglect this 50%+ "killer instinct" factor. Probably because you either "get it" or you don't. It is also part of my experience that a person's "killer instinct" is only revealed when it is "under fire." That is, you don't know whether someone has the killer instinct until that person takes a few punches to the face, or kicks to the body. How they react will show how much killer instinct they have. Will they turn their heads? Will they collapse? Will they retreat? Will they drop their hands? Or will they smile? Or will they act like nothing happened? Or will they stay focused on what they are trying to accomplish (e.g., inflict some hurt on the other guy)?

Assuming combat success (sport or real) is mostly (50% or more) a function of one's mind and mental attitude (again, one man's opinion), the question becomes: Does sparring help people get or cultivate the killer instinct? Or does it water down a person's killer instinct with pads and rules and half-hearted techniques?

In my opinion, both responses are 100% correct.

Understanding Intent is all that is needed and you can bring the "danger" into a safe training environment.
Your post is right on the button.