Disadvantages of sparring?

[t_niehoff]

And yet the mental aspect is trained in all forms of physical training, from visualizations to the concerns that "his head wasn't in the game" and so forth and so on.
The mental aspect is even more crucial at the elite level where the physical attributes are developed to the max and the only real difference may will be a "mental edge".

And by the same token, there are times when the elite are just physically "off" (tired, lackidsical, low-energy, etc.). So what you have are athletes who have good and bad days, both physically and mentally.

My point is that there are all kinds of aspects that are involved in any athletic contest, including fighting. And any of them can make a difference -- conditioning, experience, skill, mental toughness, pain tolerance, distractions in your life, etc. All kinds of things. The mental aspect is just one among many.

But I think most of this talk about the mental aspects is putting the horse before the cart. As you even point out, "at the elite level where the physical attributes are developed to the max and the only real difference may will be a 'mental edge'". No one in WCK is anywhere near that "elite level".

[sanjuro_ronin]

And by the same token, there are times when the elite are just physically "off" (tired, lackidsical, low-energy, etc.). So what you have are athletes who have good and bad days, both physically and mentally.

My point is that there are all kinds of aspects that are involved in any athletic contest, including fighting. And any of them can make a difference -- conditioning, experience, skill, mental toughness, pain tolerance, distractions in your life, etc. All kinds of things. The mental aspect is just one among many.

But I think most of this talk about the mental aspects is putting the horse before the cart. As you even point out, "at the elite level where the physical attributes are developed to the max and the only real difference may will be a 'mental edge'". No one in WCK is anywhere near that "elite level".

The vast majority of people training in MA are recreational, the elite are the top 5%, if that.
And yes, focusing on the mental when you can hardly to the physical is a tad premature.
Though visualization helps at any stage of development.

have you read the studies on "brain re-wiring" ?

[AmanuJRY]

And yet the mental aspect is trained in all forms of physical training, from visualizations to the concerns that "his head wasn't in the game" and so forth and so on.
The mental aspect is even more crucial at the elite level where the physical attributes are developed to the max and the only real difference may will be a "mental edge".

100% correct.

We're on the same page....

[t_niehoff]

The vast majority of people training in MA are recreational, the elite are the top 5%, if that.
And yes, focusing on the mental when you can hardly to the physical is a tad premature.
Though visualization helps at any stage of development.

have you read the studies on "brain re-wiring" ?

I don't agree that visualization "at any stage of development" helps. How does visualizing performing something incorrectly, visualizing some way that won't work, etc. help? No matter what the activity, practice doesn't make perfect, it only makes it more-or-less permanent.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't agree that visualization "at any stage of development" helps. How does visualizing performing something incorrectly, visualizing some way that won't work, etc. help? No matter what the activity, practice doesn't make perfect, it only makes it more-or-less permanent.

Look up brain re-wiring and you will see the studies done on it and how visualization works.
I am not sure why you would assume that people would be doing it incorrectly, you must run in a strange circle of practioners.

[AmanuJRY]

I don't agree that visualization "at any stage of development" helps. How does visualizing performing something incorrectly, visualizing some way that won't work, etc. help? No matter what the activity, practice doesn't make perfect, it only makes it more-or-less permanent.

I was able to do a 720 on my snowboard, but I was able to visualize it..and eventually do it...

Sure, if you can't visualize the tech correctly it's probably not helping much, but there are plenty of good examples to use and give a person the correct image.

We have a few students in our group who, with no prior experience are exceptional at putting kick combos together...how did he learn to do that???

...and I'm not buying genetic predisposition.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Some people are born to do certain things, no doubt that physically they are perfect for them, BUT they also have the ability to "absorb" mentally better than most that very thing they are "genetically predisposed" to.

[AmanuJRY]

Ok, so I'll accept genetic predisposition to an extent...

[LoneTiger108]

"Actually, more to the point, is a Kung Fu Master to be judged on 'fighting in a cage'? Would a Kung Fu Master allow his/her students fight in this way? What for?"

I find this sort of statement to be a hilarious example of TCMA silliness.

A person can only be judged by his performance in fighting. Whether it is in a cage, in the gym, in a ring, etc. it really doesn't matter. After all, if you can fight at a high elvel in a cage, you can fight at a high level anywhere. If you can't fight well, the venue won't make a difference.

The other laugh is the "allow his/her students" part. If his/her students aren't fighting, then they will have no fighting skill. And, any "student" who allows their "Master" to tell them what they can or cannot do is a sheep.

Let me think... I must've been a sheep.

TCMA silliness, as you call it, is where you may actually find some of these 'High Level' practitioners you are all talking of here. Within our Traditions we hold the keys to our past ancestors, who in turn may have trained the same skills and already proven their worth in their own time. Fighting or not, the skills are still here today in the name of Wing Chun herself.

By using the word 'Master', in your opinion also, would mean that around 99% of the Martial Arts community are mere 'sheep'. Nice outlook.

Its only a familiar term, known to those who have 'served' I suppose, or those who have taken the responsibility of what their learning to heart as Wing Chun knowledge can only ever be 'given' it can not be 'taken'. Without a 'Master' there is really nobody to 'give'...

[nschmelzer]

It sounds like most of us agree (except for the few persistent trolls) that at least 50% of combat (sport or real) is mental. Some of us have even shared their experiences with cultivating the "killer instinct" - and having it cause personality problems. That is very interesting.

For me, I do not like sparring because I don't like the strategies, energies, and intentions, needed to maintain a civil sparring environment. I think sparring (almost as much as not sparring) creates combat capability illusions. I spar mostly to remember the taste of my own blood, and I hit hard because I feel that I am not helping myself or my opponent with light contact.

How do you cultivate the "killer instinct" without going crazy? How do you cultivate the "killer instinct" without having ego or id control you? I use breathing and pile standing (like tai chi).

(As a form of troll repellent - let's assume there is no such thing as MMA athletes that train night and day. Instead, the world is full of men with normal jobs, and that train on some nights because they feel that combat training offers them a physical, practical, and philosophical challenge.)

[t_niehoff]

It sounds like most of us agree (except for the few persistent trolls) that at least 50% of combat (sport or real) is mental. Some of us have even shared their experiences with cultivating the "killer instinct" - and having it cause personality problems. That is very interesting.

It's amazing that people think because they find others like themselves, who believe the same sorts of things, that those beliefs must have some validity.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"In the past guys carried 2 knives as the primary weapon, like a gun today....bare hands came second." (KG)


***INTERESTING that you mention that. Was just thinking this morning about starting a thread about that - and how it relates to both the strengths and the limitations of empty hand wing chun.

........................................

"If you face a guy with knives x2 and he is trained to simply chop the first thing you present ..arm/hand ...it ends quite quickly. If not does he let the guy recover to try to stab him again ? This is guiding us in bare hands , relentless pursuit to avoid facing another attack, survival.

This is why VT is all straight lines coming at you from a flank....to maintain a line with leg if out of range of fist in an unbroken delivery of force/attack...po-pai to regain a strike from an attempted cover-up to counter , simply give the guy a sharpo push without stopping the attck forwards, he goes to far to punch again kick , regain distance seamlessly and hammer the guy relentlessly ...extrememly violent act." (KG)


***ALL the more reason why I believe that constant full contact sparring with gear is a must for wing chun people. Learning how to constantly attack (both physically and psychologically) needs a forum/methodology in order to develop these skills. And constant sparring when conducted wisely is just that forum.

[t_niehoff]

Let me think... I must've been a sheep.

Judging by what you say, it appears so.

TCMA silliness, as you call it, is where you may actually find some of these 'High Level' practitioners you are all talking of here. Within our Traditions we hold the keys to our past ancestors, who in turn may have trained the same skills and already proven their worth in their own time. Fighting or not, the skills are still here today in the name of Wing Chun herself.

And that's a all lovely fantasy. None of it true, but a lovely fantasy.

By using the word 'Master', in your opinion also, would mean that around 99% of the Martial Arts community are mere 'sheep'. Nice outlook.

99% of the TCMA community are sheep. Sheep living in a fantasy. Following their "master".

The word "master" is silly. There are certainly very high level MAs out there, people who have demonstrated very high level fighting skills. None of them practice TCMAs though.

Its only a familiar term, known to those who have 'served' I suppose, or those who have taken the responsibility of what their learning to heart as Wing Chun knowledge can only ever be 'given' it can not be 'taken'. Without a 'Master' there is really nobody to 'give'...

No one can "give" you WCK, anymore than they can "give" you boxing or wrestling or basketball or tennis. All the "WCK master" gives anybody is bullsh1t.

[k gledhill]

How do you cultivate the "killer instinct" without going crazy? How do you cultivate the "killer instinct" without having ego or id control you?

The Ving Tsun Attack System

[sihing]

Judging by what you say, it appears so.



And that's a all lovely fantasy. None of it true, but a lovely fantasy.



99% of the TCMA community are sheep. Sheep living in a fantasy. Following their "master".

The word "master" is silly. There are certainly very high level MAs out there, people who have demonstrated very high level fighting skills. None of them practice TCMAs though.



No one can "give" you WCK, anymore than they can "give" you boxing or wrestling or basketball or tennis. All the "WCK master" gives anybody is bullsh1t.

LOL....