These things were not invented by Bruce Lee!

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

To all JKD'ers:

Ok, I feel like I need to take a few moments to discuss something that I've seen happening for a long time now, something that bothers me a great deal. Namely, there are several things that I'm always seening attributed to Bruce Lee that were not of his divising, and I just feel like I should point this out. First of all, I'm not saying that Bruce was anything less than an extraordinary fighter. His athletic prowess is without question, as well as the effectiveness of his personal fighting style. But much of what Bruce tried to pass off as his idea, his method of beign "revolutionary" and "non traditional", are things he learned studying wing chun in Hong Kong, and ARE traditional methods that have been used for hundreds of years. One only has to look at Bruce's book "The Tao of Gung Fu", to actually see Bruce's own words about the efficacy of the Wing Chun system. Hell, there's even photos of bruce doing chi sao with Yip man. So here's a short list of things Bruce "discovered" that have been, coincidentally, in Wing Chun for a very long time:

1)The famed 1 inch punch. This is wing chun short jing, the ability to produce whipping force from a short distance. This is only one of several types of Wing Chun Jing that is generated by a WC pracitcioner, we learn to put this type of force into all of our strikes.

2)Using a punch to "stop" a punching attack. Here we have Kuen su Kuen, the use of a punching attack in response to a punching attack, moving the other guy slightly off line while completing your own strike. More basic Wing Chun Technique.

3)The "straight blast". This is what got me feeling feisty in the first place. I recently saw an ad for a Demitri Barbito(sp?), and his video teaching application of the "JKD straight blast", an "upper level advanced technique". This is called Lin wan Kuen, or "chain punching" in WC, and is THE MOST BASIC MODE OF ATTACK YOU LEARN. By the time you've been in WC for 6 months, you have learned to counter this with (I'm not kidding) 1 arm.

4)The idea of simplicity, efficency, and economy of motion beating "flowery" movements. This is the entire point of Wing Chun Kung Fu! WC is completely based on the idea of stripping out anything that might add complication to your fighting techniques. It focuses solely on what is combat effective, as it was built to be a combat art, and nothing else. Punches take the shortest path possible, and even when you are blocking, you are striking simultaneously.

I could go on for a while here, but I've already written an awefull lot. I guess I just really wanted people to be aware of this. Bruce was a great martial artist, of that there is no doubt, and he did many wonderful things that helped to spread Chinese Gung Fu in the west, and honestly, wether he meant to or not he's helped the spread of WC a great deal. And JKD is certainly different from WC, I'm not saying he "stole" the art. But I just get tired of seeing "Bruce Lee's 1 inch punch" and "The JKD straight blast" and stuff like that misrepresented as being things that bruce created. Anyway, no real desire to knock on Bruce, just wanted to raise the general level of awareness.

Thanks!
Sandman[Wing Chun]

[GinSueDog]

Sandman2,
Hmmm...true, Bruce Lee didn't invent any of these ideas or concepts, but these methods used in JKD are not exactly the same as the ones in Wing Chun. For an example, there are a number of different ways of doing the JKD Straight Blast, Burton Richardson's perferred method is using a Boxing jab/cross combo and track and field sprint footwork, Demitri Barbito is a PFS guy so is most likely going to prefer the track and field sprint footwork but is going to be using the classic WC chain punches for strikes. Many of the ideas in JKD are not original to JKD but were taken and motified from a number of different styles and methods out there. The punches in most schools of JKD are going to be almost pure Boxing with a strong emphasizes on non telegraphic movement and efficency. Most of the concepts used in JKD are going here been developed somewhere else, we just have a different way of executing them that we feel is more efficent and practical is all. Another example is blocking, there is almost no such thing in JKD, other then the shin blocks from Muay Thai and Boxing style parrying. Most JKD guys will either work a destruction or cover-up briefly and then open up with a attack. BTW, most MA ads are written and marketed outside of the control of the Martial Artist, so don't take them at face value. As it is the most places I've train don't teach the JKD Straight Blast until the student has a strong understanding of the basics.-ED

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"The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground...take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up...keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere...be ready and able to go everywhere."-a mix martial artist


[This message has been edited by GinSueDog (edited 08-18-2000).]

[origenx]

Sandman2 - Of course Bruce Lee got a lot of his art from existing arts. And he never claimed that he invented all this stuff from scratch. He did create a "new" art that was a collection of his personal techniques, many of which were just modified WC. But, if it was modified in any way, it probably would have actually been "wrong" to call it traditional WC anyway - since it was changed.

Sandman is right plus most "JKD men" do this
stuff like the strait blast wrong and lacking structure. And GinSueDog JKD does not due destruction this comes from Kali wich is not in Bruce Lee's fighting method JKD

[GinSueDog]

BryanS,
I've trained in both Jun Fan JKD and JKD Concepts. In Concepts some destructions are used from Kali. Yes, Jun Fan does not have destructions. I think it depends a lot on what you consider Bruce Lee's fighting method to be.-ED

[thekuntawman]

you sell more tapes if you talk "bruce lee this, bruce lee that".

all these people out here are using bruce lee name to give themself credibility and to sell the tapes.

[DragonzRage]

Sandman,

No offense intended buddy, but I think you're being too sensitive regarding the Bruce Lee/wing chun connection. You have to recognize the fact that Lee never claimed to be creating anything new. He stressed that time and time again and its part of the reason why he regretted coining the term JKD. He never intended to sell the skills he learned from wing chun as his own unique creation. In fact, if you look at his early activities in the USA you'd see that he spent a great deal of time promoting Wing Chun and Chinese boxing in general long before the term JKD was even in his mind. The only book he ever perosnally published to my knowledge was a book on wing chun, in fact.

JKD was never meant to be a brand new and invincible set of techniques. It was just meant as a way for practitioners to seek their own path in martial arts. As for certain techniques used by Bruce and some other JKD people (such as the straight blast, one inch punch), who really cares what you call them? Some people associated the one inch punch with Bruce Lee because he was the first guy they ever saw do it. As for the JKD straight blast, what else are you supposed to call it when a JKD man is delivering a barrage of straightline punches? Why bother calling it the wing chun straight blast? Another ancient gung fu style probably had the straight blast long before wing chun was conceived. Boxing trained strikers such as Vitor Belfort who have no background in JKD or wing chun use the straight blast in their own way as well. The concept of jing in the one inch punch existed in CMA long before wing chun was invented as well. So how can you expect these techniques to be patented to wing chun? Isn't that kind of a double standard? My point is why should we worry about patenting techniques? There is nothing new under the sun and different expressions of the same concepts can be found in various martial arts styles. Its pointless. If it works then learn how to use it. Who cares about what you call it or where it comes from? I think that many classical martial artists worry too much about labeling their knowledge under the specific system they practice. If they use a technique, they have to be able to link it to their style. I guess people tend to find security and confidence by standing behind an institution, ancient tradition, etc rather than accepting the truth in its simplicity. But in the long run, this will only limit their perspective. I personally found much more freedom and clarity when I stopped worrying about whether I was doing a Hung Ga punch, a JKD punch or a boxing punch and instead just PUNCHED. I really couldn't care less about what you call my straight blast. And I don't think that most JKD people out there would either. Just my perspective. Happy training.

~Max

[Sam]

Many people attribute Bruce's JKD concepts with mostly Wing Chun concepts. If you study his inch punch and angular fighting stance they reflect more of the Southern Mantis he trained in. There are many photo's of him with his fist pointing top knuckle down such as in SPM. I know he has drawn from many arts but I feel Bruce's Mantis influence has been ignored.

[sifu dan]

bruce had a small understandig of the w system as a whole. he only studied for like 3 years.he is my idol,but you guys that try chain punching with the sprint,have no structure,if a guy stance turns and sticks his foot out,you will go flying.i would only do this if the guy was badly hurt first.also wing chun does have destructions,they are called punishing fast hands,and use the phoenix eye and ginger fist from the 3rd form. i have been doing wing chun for a while,aong with amnde muda,kali,and grappling,but i have made sure i learn these systems in their whole. then i can combine what works for me,hence jkd. if you do not learn wing chun from start to finish,how do you absorb what is useful?yor absorbing what was useful for someone else,the havingto choose from that. you could be missing the techniques from wc which are best for you,because your teacher didnt show them,because he didnt like them.brue did nt in my opinion,say to grab a little of this and a little of that.jkd is a lifetime of study,if you want to really follow the philosophy.i am glad that i didnt start jkd util this year,because i already have all those years of studying other arts,that i can take what is not in the jkd currriculum,from wig chun or mande mda,etc,and use it.the jkd philosophy is what works for you,not what worked for bruc. unless you have all bruces attributes.

[HuangKaiVun]

I'm probably uninformed, but I don't remember Bruce Lee ever having said that HE invented those things.

[shipalohan]

the problem i have with jkd is that it has style, it is a style. It's boxing concepts on the street. yes, there is grappling but broken rhythm, offensive defenese, etc. give it style which contradicts what it is suppose to be. And some other things he learend wing chun for five years only and wing chun is an incomplete kung fu system and the forms are done right up and had combination techniques as opposed the northern kung fu where the form are done in 90 degree stance to work the legs and the techniques are split up not one after the other. The fact is wing chun was basic kung fu with crappy forms and northern kung fu (shaolin) is complete kung-fu with good forms.

[tsb]

Great, another "my style is the best and all other styles suck" perspective. Just what this forum needs.

[sifu dan]

where do people get the nerve to think one style is s much better tha another?i feel like im on a brailian jj forum.northern shaolin has great stuff,but much of it is not economic.wing chun forms are upright,because we fight uprght.shaolin forms train attributes,butwhen shaolin guys spar,it turns upright.all styles are good,its the practicioner that makes the difference.my silat teacher and friend,herman suwanda,could amaze me,kill me,take me down and submt me wit his feet only,but that wasm him,not the style.the style is great also,but its guys that become their style,that are awesome.

Dan
Bruce lee studied Wing chun for more than 3 years from around the time he was 13 or 14 till left for the US at age 18 thats alot more than 3 years.

BTW Herman Suwanda and his wife have died

[Dragon Spirit]

Dude no offense but I would just love to see u block Bruce Lee's straight blast with one arm! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]