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Thread: The passing of another American Hero

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1bad65 View Post
    If they are so legit then it would be pretty obvious the bombings were done for the wrong reasons then. Interesting this is the first I've heard of them.
    Oh what, the curators forgot to run their legitimacy past you did they?

    There's a real shock.
    What's that supposed to mean? I'm supposed to be embarrassed about being a teacher in a Japanese junior high? Nah, sounds like you're passing the buck for being called on not reading anything properly.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1bad65 View Post
    Did Truman make these anti-Japanese statements before or after Pearl Harbor? Before or after the Japanese invaded China? You said they were 'long-standing'.
    FFS look up any page on Truman talking about Hiroshima/the Japanese. And I've even said in light of the atrocities he was justified in saying these things, so I don't even know wtf you're disagreeing with now.

    Quote Originally Posted by BM2 View Post
    Well...ummmm....Doesn't appear as if KC and Punch watched The History Channel's story on how many in the military didn't want to surrender even after the second bomb. There was several that were planning a coup.
    Oh, 1Bad65, no use in presenting your points to them.
    Oh good, just when I thought the thread couldn't degenerate any further. No, I didnt see that one documentary on a controversial subject with both sides accusing each other of revisionism that would have completely changed my view of the opinions of the Allies' top wartime generals... your relevance is? Yes, there were some people who opposed surrender, just as there are still some people with close connections to the Japanese govt now who want to get rid of all the foreigners out of Japan. I don't worry about those nuts either. It's a matter of fact that these people existed, as it's a matter of fact that people who opposed Pearl Harbour, or people who opposed the War or people who wanted to surrender existed close to and within the Japanese army and government... it's a matter of opinion as to which factions were dominant.
    They most likely believe in a 9/11 cover up too Hey, I'm being serious.
    Right, so someone who disagrees on one subject with you automatically believes in the tooth fairy? Can we say ad hominem?
    Quote Originally Posted by 1bad65 View Post
    Totally correct. On August 14th there was an attempted coup in order to prevent the surrender.
    Attempted.
    He is a wingnut for sure. It's why I asked if he believed the FDR-Pearl Harbor conspiracy theory. I don't think he answered that.
    I answered that. I said I don't know anything about it. I've heard of it, but I don't give it enough credence or importance to think it worth wasting time on investigating.

    Honestly, the guy is a Japanophile who loves it over there so much that he actually hates what his own country did to those 'nice people'.
    You're really a nasty presumptive little sh!t aren't you? Is my difference of opinion so frightening for you that you have to resort to more and more personal attacks and inventions? Diddums!
    its safe to say that I train some martial arts. Im not that good really, but most people really suck, so I feel ok about that - Sunfist

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  2. #62
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    Why is it so inconceivable that the US didn't know about Pearl Harbour in advance? We knew about the Argentine invasion of the Falkland Islands well in advance and did nothing until after the fact.
    The Japanese attacked the Pacific fleet in response to the financial and material assistance that the Americans were giving to Chiang Kai Shek (now THERE was a great humanitarian ), in their eyes it was a legitimate military target and by siding with the Chinese the Americans were declaring themselves Japan's enemy.
    Much of the problem early in the war was that the effectiveness of Japanese airpower was greatly underestimated, as illustrated by the sinking of the Prince of Wales, and an attack on Pearl may not have been considered a major threat.
    I'm not going to speak too much about Hiroshima, but instead I'll look at the close parallels to Dresden, a bombing that many in Britain feel distinctly uncomfortable about. Dresden was firebombed in February 1945 by the RAF, leading to the deaths of 25-35000 civilians. Had the bombings occurred earlier in the war then there probably would be no controversy, there were after all several munitions factories there, but the Germans were already in full retreat on the Eastern front, and Dresden would have been overrun by the Red Army in less than a week anyway.
    The principle reason given was that the attack would disrupt communications, and prevent a fighting retreat, but again the reality was that the German army in the east was a broken force, massively outnumbered by the advancing Soviets.
    Many people feel that the principle reason for the bombing of Dresden was to say to the arriving Soviet troops "this could be your city".
    Did the bombing of Dresden shorten the war? Probably not.
    Did it save russian lives? Maybe a hundred or so, if that.
    Is it justifiable to kill 30000 civilians to send out a message? Probably not.
    When asked about the bombings in Easern Germany, Marshall Arthur "bomber" Harris stated that the lives of the entire German population were not worth that of one British soldier. Is that a defensible position? Almost certainly not
    "The man who stands for nothing is likely to fall for anything"
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Punch View Post
    FFS look up any page on Truman talking about Hiroshima/the Japanese. And I've even said in light of the atrocities he was justified in saying these things, so I don't even know wtf you're disagreeing with now.
    Your own words:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Punch View Post
    ...Truman, a self-confessed inexperienced President thrust suddenly into a job he wasn't prepared for with a well-documented hatred of the Japanese people, yes.
    So if he only said anti-Japanese things AFTER the war was ongoing, then you can't use his anti-Japanese sentiment as a bogus excuse for dropping the bombs.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Punch View Post
    What's that supposed to mean? I'm supposed to be embarrassed about being a teacher in a Japanese junior high?
    It means what I said. You seem to be upset at the US WHO WERE SURPRISE ATTACKED for the way they ended the war. I feel the fact you are a Japanophile is a rational reason why. If not, why do you take the 'evidence' of a Japanese museum over Truman's word?


    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Punch View Post
    No, I didnt see that one documentary on a controversial subject with both sides accusing each other of revisionism that would have completely changed my view of the opinions of the Allies' top wartime generals... your relevance is?
    Read: unless it comes from a Japanese museum it is irrelevant. I don't look at or digest any other evidence.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Punch View Post
    You're really a nasty presumptive little sh!t aren't you? Is my difference of opinion so frightening for you that you have to resort to more and more personal attacks and inventions? Diddums!
    You are a Japanophile. Deal with it. You are a conspiracy theorist. Deal with it.

    The fact that you are defending a country which committed war crimes by the ton over your own country is frightening. Your correct there.

  4. #64
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    The fact that you are defending a country which committed war crimes by the ton over your own country is frightening. Your correct there.
    Funny thing about war crimes, either they exist for everyone, or no one.
    I don't know of any country at war that is NOT guilty of war crimes.
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    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Gash View Post
    Why is it so inconceivable that the US didn't know about Pearl Harbour in advance? We knew about the Argentine invasion of the Falkland Islands well in advance and did nothing until after the fact.
    The Japanese attacked the Pacific fleet in response to the financial and material assistance that the Americans were giving to Chiang Kai Shek (now THERE was a great humanitarian ), in their eyes it was a legitimate military target and by siding with the Chinese the Americans were declaring themselves Japan's enemy.
    Oh Jeez, another one.

    You really believe FDR knew in advance? Ah, Argentina had said repeadedly the Falklands were their land and had threatened to attack them repeadedly. Plus, I think that our intellegence services and technology had improved in the ~40 years between the Falklands War and Pearl Harbor.

    No matter what you say about Chiang Kai-Shek, the Japanese invaded China on their own accord. PERIOD. We were China's ally BEFORE the Japanese invaded them. Seems the Japanese made quite a few errors in judgement and when they had to pay the piper, they (and their apologists) sure did alot of whining about it.

  6. #66
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    Ally is stretching it a bit, exploitative psuedo imperialistic vested interest is probably more accurate. We all had imperial territories in Asia, why should Japan not have similar ambitions just because they have a different skin colour?
    I have no opinion as to whether there was advance knowledge of Pearl Harbour, it's your complete refusal to discuss it at all that was the point of conversation.
    I am in no way a Japanese apologist, the Japanese did many, many terrible things for which there can be no justification, but at the same time I am not blinkered to the historical and current failings of my own country and yours, and I certainly will not participate in the celebration of a man who killed thousands upon thousands of civilians as a hero.
    "The man who stands for nothing is likely to fall for anything"
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Gash View Post
    Ally is stretching it a bit, exploitative psuedo imperialistic vested interest is probably more accurate. We all had imperial territories in Asia, why should Japan not have similar ambitions just because they have a different skin colour?
    Do what?! We had ONE territory, not colony, the Philippines. And we were not murdering the people there like the Japanese did. We granted them independence just after WWII ended also. The Japanese were attacking other nations to plunder the area's natuaral resources as Japan has NO oil or rubber deposits of her own for example. Look up the 'Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere' and educate yourself.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Gash View Post
    I have no opinion as to whether there was advance knowledge of Pearl Harbour, it's your complete refusal to discuss it at all that was the point of conversation.
    Hello? I asked if Punch believed that. I NEVER refused to discuss it. I do think it's a load of BS though, I'll admit that beforehand.

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