"Fantasy-base" martial arts

[KPM]

Hey Dale!

Does BJJ have some fantasy foo? Yep... I've noted before that just about all of the "self-defense" in BJJ is mostly B.S.

---Really! If you noted that on this thread, I guess I must have missed it! My apologies for that! Since, given the title of this thread, it would have been a very appropriate thing for you to post!

[Nick Forrer]

If you have been reading this thread you will note that I never said bad things about BJJ, and stated that I admire it. My point has been that it has a "fantasy-fu" element just like other arts. Hence the title of this thread.

---Its funny, and I guess just human nature....you can get people to argue with you until you are blue in the face, but its hard to get people to actually agree with you on a given point, regardless of how obvious it may be.

Keith,

You are twisting what im say so it fits in with your preconcieved ideas (i.e. 'see BJJ is just like wc...they both have fantasy!'). But your preconcieved ideas are wrong and come from a lack of experience (no, some basic bjj lessons doesnt cut it and is in fact worse since you think you know what youre talking about when really you dont).

Fantasy Fu is thinking something will work when in reality it doesnt. This is not the case with BJJ. All the techniques in BJJ work in their proper context as opposed to not working at all i.e. so called sport techniques work in sport BJJ....so theres no element of fantasy...as long as people understand that some techniques dont carry over from one to another (e.g. collar chokes dont transfer to nogi or mma but do to the street). Again though that is not equivalent to there being a fantasy element in BJJ.

I hope thats now clear. So no im not agreeing with you.

[KPM]

Nick:

You are twisting what im say so it fits in with your preconcieved ideas (i.e. 'see BJJ is just like wc...they both have fantasy!').

---No. I think you are doing the twisting. I never said or implied that "BJJ is just like WC." What I have been saying is that ALL martial arts are guilty of having some element of "fantasy-fu" to them, and that BJJ is no exception. Its all a matter of degree....some arts have more, some less. But even BJJ is not immune, so lets cut WCK some slack and not hold BJJ out to be the paragon of "reality."

But your preconcieved ideas are wrong and come from a lack of experience

---That's why I provided a quote from Ryson Gracie that pointed out that he saw a "fantasy fu" element in BJJ and then you yourself backed it up by saying what Helio Gracie thought about it.

Fantasy Fu is thinking something will work when in reality it doesnt. This is not the case with BJJ. All the techniques in BJJ work in their proper context

---No, again....you need to go back and actually read the thread. Terrence defined "fantasy-based" as things that did not work in real fighting. That was the context. Not BJJ tournaments. Chi Sao techniques work in the context of Chi Sao. TKD high spinning kicks work in the context of TKD competition. Tai Chi works in the context of push hands. Aikido works in the context of randori.

I hope thats now clear. So no im not agreeing with you.

---What is clear is that you have once again proven one of my points for me. People will argue until they are blue in the face, but will seldom affirm an obvious point that is made. And I'm surprised Nick, you are starting to sound like one of the WCK "naysayers." Have Terrence and Dale formed a club?

[t_niehoff]

---No. I think you are doing the twisting. I never said or implied that "BJJ is just like WC." What I have been saying is that ALL martial arts are guilty of having some element of "fantasy-fu" to them, and that BJJ is no exception. Its all a matter of degree....some arts have more, some less. But even BJJ is not immune, so lets cut WCK some slack and not hold BJJ out to be the paragon of "reality."

I agree with your point that some elements of fantasy may be in every MA. And I agree with you that there are varying degrees of fantasy in different MAs. But that doesn't make fantasy "good" or acceptable. And it doesn't mean that a MA that is largely fantasy-based is on equal footing with one that is largely reality-based. Your argument that we should "cut WCK some slack" is illogical. We should instead reject fantasy where ever we find it.

Fantasy Fu is thinking something will work when in reality it doesnt. This is not the case with BJJ. All the techniques in BJJ work in their proper context

---No, again....you need to go back and actually read the thread. Terrence defined "fantasy-based" as things that did not work in real fighting. That was the context. Not BJJ tournaments. Chi Sao techniques work in the context of Chi Sao. TKD high spinning kicks work in the context of TKD competition. Tai Chi works in the context of push hands. Aikido works in the context of randori.

I think you are misinterpreting what Nick means by context -- he means in their proper context in fighting. If it doesn't work in fighting as you train it, then you are practicing something that is fantasy-based (it's reality-based if it works in fighting as you train it).

---What is clear is that you have once again proven one of my points for me. People will argue until they are blue in the face, but will seldom affirm an obvious point that is made. And I'm surprised Nick, you are starting to sound like one of the WCK "naysayers." Have Terrence and Dale formed a club?

I am not a "WCK naysayer". There is a difference between believing in fantasy and accepting reality. I am saying that WCK is a fantasy-based MA for most people since they learn/practice it that way. Even the guys that spar have a huge part of their WCK as fantasy. What I am is a "fantasy-based naysayer" (which, btw, is why people say my posts are repetitive -- because 99%of what people talk about on this forum is fantasy so I keep pointing that out!), and I'm saying that if we want to develop our WCK to be a functional martial art, then we need to approach it from a reality-based view. You can't make fantasy-based MAs functional.

[Wayfaring]

You can't make fantasy-based MAs functional.

Here's the only real fantasy-based MA I've ever run into:

http://yellowbamboo.net/

The rest vary by degress....