"Fantasy-base" martial arts

[imperialtaichi]

LOL @ organized gangs using martial arts... maybe if they are stupid they do.

Smart gangs have always used weapons... mostly firearms, since those newfangled inventions tend to me much more deadly than any martial art ever developed.

Umm.... hello.... someone's been watching too much John Woo movies.... Have you ever considered the following points?

1. Firearms are expensive. Most of the lower level Triads (which also are the ones who do most of the fighting) cannot afford guns. A lot of them are just teenagers who got sucked into the Triads and are expendible; as if the Triad boss would waste money giving them guns.
2. The favourite weapons are ones easily bought, such as knives from camping shops, meat cleavers from kitchen suppliers etc of which if they do get caught carrying them, the penalty is much less than carrying guns. Incidentally, the Chinese meat cleaver also looks a bit like the WC butterfly swords.
3. One of the most effective cut in gang wars, taught to newbie Triad members, is the upper figure 8 cut using the meat cleaver, which is actually a common move in many martial arts, including the WC Bat Jam Do. Ok, they still get killed; but at least knowing this one move is better than not knowing anything at all.
4. If one gets ambushed while having his Wonton noodles, it would be his physical fighting skills that saves him, NOT his gun, if he has one in the first place. A good martial art training can give someone this edge, whether it'd be WC or BJJ or CLF or whatever.
5. The late Wong Seung Leung has a very visible knife scar between his eyebrows, because he was once caught in the middle of a gang fight (he was an innocent victim). I would say his survival AT LEAST PARTIALLY is directly related to his WC training. I have never heard or seen that he had bullet scars.
6. Check the statistics: I don't know about the place you are from, but in Sydney there are more knives and blunt weapon injuries than gun related injuries being treated in hospitals. I believe the same is true for HK.

Please note, I respect many arts. Everyone has his/her own view as to what is useful and I respect that. Even a good boxer, grappler, UFC fighter or even a good runner will have the edge over someone who knows nothing. So if anyone wants to make statement as "LOL @ organized gangs using martial arts... maybe if they are stupid they do", please do the proper research first.

Cheers,
John

[imperialtaichi]

Thats exactly what my Sifu said when a 'well known' sifu told him he'd been fighting with the local mafia..... (admittedly he didnt use the word "newfangled" )

There's your fantasy BS right there... people add that aspect - not the system !


DREW

What is so BS about that? Ok, I have never met a Sifu who would openly admit he/she'd been fighting with the local mafia. No one would ever say such things unless he/she wants to end up in a prison cell. May be I do smell a bit of BS there...

But organised crime syndicated infiltrates so many different business in HK, such as night clubs, Karaoke bars, and even the movie industries.... that I will not be surprised that some Kung Fu schools in HK would have mafia connections.

Cheers,
John

[t_niehoff]

When people teach things they cannot do themselves in fighting, when they teach from "theory" or "concepts" instead of experience, etc., they are teaching fantasy.

---I see your point, but I think you take it too far. By your standard, anyone that teaches Wing Chun would have to test every single technique they teach in a "real fighting" situation. So what about those techniques that are perhaps "low percentage" but still important? If one teacher never has the opportunity to use them in a fight, and so refuses to teach them to his students, then his students may never know that they exist and not have them at their disposal should that situation every come up. It reminds me of the JKD motto..."absorb what is useful, reject what is useless." But the people that really understand this will tell you that this philosophy only applies after you have a solid background. I have heard Ron Balicki say that there are things he was taught that he personally does not use. But he still includes them in his curriculum because they may be of value to someone else. He has also said that there are things that he was taught that he THOUGHT he would never use, but as time went on he found them more and more valuable.

The fundamentals of any particular MA will apply to everyone in that method. And my point is that those fundamentals should be taught/trained in a way that actually works (in fighting). Otherwise, you are not really learning/training how to use them. And the only way to know that is through experience, actually making them work. Let's say, for example, that I teach you guard passing not from experience (that tells me these things actually work) but from theory or how I believe it should work, and teach you a way of passing the guard that really won't work under realistic conditions. What are you getting then? Fantasy. If you are taught WCK san sao like in that clip I referenced, what are you getting? Fantasy. You are not learning/training to use the tools of your method as you will really need to use them.

Look at teaching/training from a BJJ or boxing or judo perspective -- because the same things apply to WCK or any method of fighting. Certainly there are many things a particular BJJ fighter or boxer or judoka may not use as part of their individual game. But regardless of what is taught, trained, etc. they know will work because THEY OR SOMEONE ARE DOING THEM IN FIGHITNG. They will see for themselves if they work or not. They will see it fought.

How can we "absorb what is useful" if we don't know what is useful? The only way to tell what is useful is through fighting and seeing for ourselves.

This is why the Dog Brothers motto "if you see it taught, you see it fought" is nothing more than a clever way of saying "what we do is a reality-based martial art and not a fantasy-based martial art." That motto is true of all reality-based, and hence functional, martial arts. In contrast, when you see it trained and don't see it come out in fighting, "when you see it taught and don't see it fought", you know you have a fantasy-based martial art. And fantasy-based martial art isn't just a waste of training time, it is actually counter-productive, because you are training your body to move, act, behave, etc. in ways that will fail.

---But I have heard Marc Denny say that he still feels that a background in a "traditional" FMA is valuable. He has said that he values the "traditional" flow drills of Kali, even though you don't see them come out in fighting in exactly the same way as the drill. Just like Chi Sao, they help to build reflexes and responses that often come out in fighting in unexpected ways. Guro Denny is not an advocate of "throwing out the baby with the bathwater" and rejecting all traditional training. What he does is draw upon the traditional training to isolate and develop that things that work the best. He "functionalizes" the techniques, which is something we need to do with Wing Chun. But I get the impression that he would not agree with tossing out all the traditional training. Dog Brother Martial Arts is like the JKD of stickfighting. They have started from a "traditional" base and still draw upon "traditional" teachings in developing their own functional system.

Why is it useful to learn movements, actions, techniques, etc. in a way that we won't really use them? Do you see that when this happens you are not really learning or developing a skill? Because a skill is our ability to perform a task (what you will do in fighting), to do a certain thing. And you are not learning or developing that. You are learning and "developing"something else, a way to not really do it. If you practice one way and then do it another when fighting, how is that good, effective training?

Doesn't it make more sense to learn the skill, practice the skill, and then use the skill (in fighting) so that you get a 1-to-1-to-1 correspondence, that it is performed consistently throughout your learning/training?

[JPinAZ]

Another interesting post here t! I agree with you (again!) 100% here, BUT the 'Dog Brothers' teach openly to anyone. Wing Chun training has still, to this day, rarely been actually 'seen' by the public as much of it is completed without 'anyone' watching. All you actually 'see' are the results i.e forms, shapes and drills of past ancestors.

So, my question is how do you 'know' that what you're looking at is actually Wing Chun training at all?

I've seen and trained a few little eccentric bits, all of which you wouldn't imagine being of any use in fighting, but I still trained them because I believed they had purpose at the time. Is this still fantasy?

The main issue here is you're trying to have discussion about WC with T who obviously doesn't know/understand squat about WC. Good luck

[k gledhill]

I just erased a response to the same effect, dont waste your time with terence, he thrives on your response anything gets to close for him and 'copy /paste ' mantra

[Knifefighter]

---But I have heard Marc Denny say that he still feels that a background in a "traditional" FMA is valuable. He has said that he values the "traditional" flow drills of Kali, even though you don't see them come out in fighting in exactly the same way as the drill. Just like Chi Sao, they help to build reflexes and responses that often come out in fighting in unexpected ways. Guro Denny is not an advocate of "throwing out the baby with the bathwater" and rejecting all traditional training. What he does is draw upon the traditional training to isolate and develop that things that work the best. He "functionalizes" the techniques, which is something we need to do with Wing Chun. But I get the impression that he would not agree with tossing out all the traditional training. Dog Brother Martial Arts is like the JKD of stickfighting. They have started from a "traditional" base and still draw upon "traditional" teachings in developing their own functional system.

Any non-optimal, counter productive "energy development" drills that these guys are doing are overriden by the more realistic drills and actual fighting they are doing. They are able to use their stuff in spite of any traditional drills, not because of them.

[Knifefighter]

3. One of the most effective cut in gang wars, taught to newbie Triad members, is the upper figure 8 cut using the meat cleaver, which is actually a common move in many martial arts, including the WC Bat Jam Do. Ok, they still get killed; but at least knowing this one move is better than not knowing anything at all.

LOL @ an upward figure 8 with a meat cleaver. No wonder they are getting killed. Another example of using a theoretical non-functional, non-fighter's, fantasy approach by taking the natural attributes of a weapon and using it in the opposite manner in which it was designed.

[doug maverick]

LOL @ being stupid enough to believe people are stupid enough to walk around with razor blades in their mouths.

i think your a child maybe fifteen or sixteen its not about believeing like i read it or something. its believing it cause i know it to be fact. i really feel sorry for you that you walk around so ignorant, its really sad how little you know about what going on. you live in a fantasy world son. and when someone crash's you back to reality i hope and prey that you don't die.

[Knifefighter]

i think your a child maybe fifteen or sixteen its not about believeing like i read it or something. its believing it cause i know it to be fact. i really feel sorry for you that you walk around so ignorant, its really sad how little you know about what going on. you live in a fantasy world son. and when someone crash's you back to reality i hope and prey that you don't die.

Actually, you should feel sorry for yourself for hanging around with people who are stupid enough to walk around with razor blades in their mouths.

[doug maverick]

dude i don;t hang around with people who do that. i've seen people who do it, its fit in the side of the mouth in a way that even if you hit them in the side of the face the blade won;t cut them also they got fools like you around who think that its a myth and won;t expect next thing you know your on the floor with your throat cut. open your eyes son. alot of things happen out there in the streets alot. all that **** you do in your gym is for sport cause if it was for the street your thought process would be totally defferent. but then again its all about enviroment and experience. i've read some of your post here and other places and it tells me how limited you are in actual fights. don't feel bad times have changed if you get into a fist fight now you better kill the guy your fighting or else he'll come back with a gun it has happened i believe someone on these furoms posted a thread about his son who just survived the same ordeal. look i'm not trying to argue with you i'm trying to enlighten you. young kids like you are the most at risk for gang violance, so stop walking around thinking you know everything you need to know cause you don't. everything you know can be written on a ****tail napkin.

[k gledhill]

it gets better every day ...

[Knifefighter]

dude i don;t hang around with people who do that. i've seen people who do it, its fit in the side of the mouth in a way that even if you hit them in the side of the face the blade won;t cut them also they got fools like you around who think that its a myth and won;t expect next thing you know your on the floor with your throat cut. open your eyes son. alot of things happen out there in the streets alot. all that **** you do in your gym is for sport cause if it was for the street your thought process would be totally defferent. but then again its all about enviroment and experience. i've read some of your post here and other places and it tells me how limited you are in actual fights. don't feel bad times have changed if you get into a fist fight now you better kill the guy your fighting or else he'll come back with a gun it has happened i believe someone on these furoms posted a thread about his son who just survived the same ordeal. look i'm not trying to argue with you i'm trying to enlighten you. young kids like you are the most at risk for gang violance, so stop walking around thinking you know everything you need to know cause you don't. everything you know can be written on a ****tail napkin.

LOL... You've obviously never dealt with razor blades. You have absolutely no clue.

[doug maverick]

yea i have. my friend, razor blades is the weapon of choice for low level gang members who can afford guns but not bullets. again your showing you age my friend

[sihing]

yea i have. my friend, razor blades is the weapon of choice for low level gang members who can afford guns but not bullets. again your showing you age my friend

Doug,

Knifey really is in his 50's, lol, maybe he's over the hill and out of the loop

[Wayfaring]

Of course you are in shape... you train BJJ.

Weren't you the one making the gay abs comments earlier?

(not that there's anything wrong with that)

BJJ...
It's only gay if you make eye contact.

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