"Fantasy-base" martial arts

[JPinAZ]

What you wish to do in any fight doesn't mean that will happen. It would be nice if we had that control. We very often don't.

no kidding? wow, I think that's the key we've all been missing

There you go gain, totally avoiding the question YET AGAIN.

Here, I'll try it again -
In case you forgot already, you said "... You take your training in BJJ and adapt it to sport, whether gi or no gi, to vale tudo, to street, etc. It's all fighting. Realistic skills work in anyb realsitic environment, situation. You just need to adapt them."

to which I said "could you please explain how you 'adapt' BJJ to a street fight where you wish to remain on your feet and not go to the ground? (in case you have to deal with multiple opponents, or just wish to remove yourself from the fight by running, whatever)"

So, again, just so we know you are on the level and not just trolling - How do you take your trianing in BJJ and adapt it to the street if you want to stay standing and keep it there? (forget the sport crap too, you were specifically saying it's all fighting)
Just for grins, since you said it, back it up for once. Or do you not have to qualify ANYTHING you say?

[JPinAZ]

Oh, it's not BS -- fantasy-based MAs abound. And they are easy to spot.
.

ok, list the one's you've spotted
And nothing general, get right down to the point and give solid examples. List practitioners, lineages, etc if you'd like. Be specific as possible so we know where you're coming from. Typical answers like "all fantasy-based WC, or aikido, etc" don't count.

[t_niehoff]

Terrrance, although i agree with some points you make i think the above is a circular argument....

It's not circular. A martial art that is reality-based uses experience actually fighting as the basis for which to train, etc. It starts with the fight and sees what things actually work (either via experiement, trial-and-error, whatever) and retains thos things that prove useful. That's why they evolve. Fantasy-based MAs don't do that. They being with a fantasy, an idea, a "concept" (the fantasy) of how fighting should work. And they don't take the next step.

I do bjj terrance, and i suck at it. So even basic armbars, mount escapes, single leg takedowns are hard to do for me against skilled guys when we're going at it full force. Does this make bjj fantasy? I dont think so, it only means I suck at it? So i dont think that the above criteria alone is enough to put the official 'fantasy' stamp on any martial art.

Go back and read my post. I said, "When your BJJ instructor teaches you, he teaches you from experience, teaching you those things that he *knows* works -- becasue he's either done them or at the very least seen them done, repeatedly, consistently, at high levels of resisitance . . ." Did you read that part? What we know is that those things can work, and can work at a very high level AND WE KNOW THAT FROM EXPERIENCE not theoy.

Contrast that, for example, with those WCK people who teach that the biu jee is a finger jab attack, and show pictures, etc. of themselves striking with their fingers. Pure fantasy.

I disagree with this. Lets suppose gi bjj is a realistic skill. Lets also suppose that boxing is a realistic skill. And the ring is a realistic environment. Is my crappling gonna help me in th eboxing ring?

Why is it that gi grappling is assumed to be realistic to fighting? How bout sport tkd? judo? chi sao?

Because something is a realistic skill and adaptive, doesn't mean it works in every situation or context. Obviously ground skills are only going to work on the ground.

You don't understand what it means for a skill to be realistic. It is realistic because we can look at genuine fights and see that these things actually work as they are practiced. You can't tell what is realistic by some theoretical basis. It's based only on observation and experience. If what you are doing in practice doesn't correspond to what you are doing in fighting, then it isn't a realsitic skill.

[t_niehoff]

no kidding? wow, I think that's the key we've all been missing

There you go gain, totally avoiding the question YET AGAIN.

Here, I'll try it again -
In case you forgot already, you said "... You take your training in BJJ and adapt it to sport, whether gi or no gi, to vale tudo, to street, etc. It's all fighting. Realistic skills work in anyb realsitic environment, situation. You just need to adapt them."

to which I said "could you please explain how you 'adapt' BJJ to a street fight where you wish to remain on your feet and not go to the ground? (in case you have to deal with multiple opponents, or just wish to remove yourself from the fight by running, whatever)"

So, again, just so we know you are on the level and not just trolling - How do you take your trianing in BJJ and adapt it to the street if you want to stay standing and keep it there? (forget the sport crap too, you were specifically saying it's all fighting)
Just for grins, since you said it, back it up for once. Or do you not have to qualify ANYTHING you say?

You aren't understanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying BJJ can be used to do whatever you want. I'm saying the skills that BJJ teach can with adaptation be used in the gym, in the cage, in the ring, in the street, etc.

Instead of looking at it from a style perspective, let's make it simpler. How do you get out of a headlock. That's a realisiic skill. If you have the skill to do that, you can do it in a gym, in the street, in the cage. You may have to adapt it a bit, but the fundamental skill will apply.

[Knifefighter]

mainly the way alot of these street thugs gang memeber fight alot of these guy have razor blades in between their fingers and in their mouths.

LOL @ believing the urban myth of guys walking around with razor blades in their mouths. Even bigger LOL's a someone actually trying to do that in a physical confrontation.

Tell you what... try putting a razor blade in your mouth and tussling around with someone. Get back to me on how many stiches you needed on the inside of your mouth and tongue... that's assuming you didn't swallow it in the first place.

[t_niehoff]

The TWC video clip you cite as evidence of fantasy based training does not purport to be video of a real combat situation.

Thank you. That's exactly my point. It's fantasy. Even as a demo, you are demoing something that won't ever happen. Youa re demoing fantasy. If this is what is being taught, what is being taught is fantasy.

Reality-based MAs can do demos too which aren't real "combat' (LOL!) situations. But they will demo what they really train, what they really do. Not fantasy.

But since we are on the subject of fantasy. Here is another video clip of a fantasy sequence... no punches to the head permitted, no fishooks, etc. Although the differences in videos is obvious, the point is... you are quick to see the fantasy in TMA - but completely blind to the fantasy of those that you tout as realistic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVds78FSl4E

That's not fantasy -- that is an example of realistic skills being actuallty being used. You aren't grasping that realsitic skills are those things that can really be used in fighting, things you can really pull-off against a genuinely resisting opponent trying to beat you. You can have competitions that involve limited realistic skills, as youdo in boxing, MT, wrestling, BJJ, etc. However, that's not the same thing as having techniques, strategies, etc. that won't work under realistic conditions.

You need to get off your high-horse. Why don't you MMA types go to the MMA forum and talk about how great your martial arts is? Oh - probably because those guys would see right through your BS.

MMAists do see right thru BS for the most part, unlike the fantasy-based guys.

[duende]

I do bjj terrance, and i suck at it. So even basic armbars, mount escapes, single leg takedowns are hard to do for me against skilled guys when we're going at it full force. Does this make bjj fantasy? I dont think so, it only means I suck at it? So i dont think that the above criteria alone is enough to put the official 'fantasy' stamp on any martial art.

Very nice point... BJJ is a fine art, but it takes real time put into training, just like everything else.

A friend of mine who studies BJJ (and is also twenty years younger) wanted to spar with me. He's only got a few years in BJJ... so funny enough for him... sparring meant starting on the ground, on his back. Ha! Is that fantasy-based then?? NO... it is simply just a breakdown of the learning progression into basic concepts and a simpler timeframe.

Same thing with this WC clip in question. No one is trying to pass it off as realistic fighting... Imo, it is just a video example of an applied technique with a cooprative training partner in order to let the technique itself be easily demonstrated.

No big deal...

Would that technique alone work in a real fightin situation?? No. Will lying on your back waiting for the fighter to come at you work alone in a real fighting situation?? No.

[Knifefighter]

could you please explain how you 'adapt' BJJ to a street fight where you wish to remain on your feet and not go to the ground? (in case you have to deal with multiple opponents, or just wish to remove yourself from the fight by running, whatever)

Ronin already told you that. You adapt it by using the same tools as MT, boxing, and wrestling do for the standup portion.

[t_niehoff]

I'd seen this clip before t, and can understand what you say here, for once. But I also argue the point, if you can't actually use what we're looking at here, as a Wing Chun student you haven't put in enough time. I hope that most practitioners can see the set and how they would demo in their way, at their speed, with their power and character. For that is Wing Chun IMO.

I'm sure it is WK to *you* and to many, many people. That's precisely my point. It is fantasy fu. Let's see someone actually do that sort of thing in fighting some competant nonWCK people. It won't happen. You can even look at the "fights" the guys that train there had and see they don't do those things when they do fight. Because you can't.

The young femme fatale here still has crisp shape. Enough for a download on a website as an example. As for the fantasy, are we talking of some sort if vizualization? Isn't that what we all do to see the next stage of progression? How would you look if you 'copied' this set your way t?

Could be filmed in a second or two, right?

What are you talking about?

[Knifefighter]

I do bjj terrance, and i suck at it. So even basic armbars, mount escapes, single leg takedowns are hard to do for me against skilled guys when we're going at it full force. Does this make bjj fantasy?

There is one huge difference in what you are doing with a functional arts such as BJJ. The system is set up so that, although you might suck at it now, all you have to do is keep training at it and soon you will be able to proficiently use those tools against full-on resisting opponents.

[t_niehoff]

.

Same thing with this WC clip in question. No one is trying to pass it off as realistic fighting... Imo, it is just a video example of an applied technique with a cooprative training partner in order to let the technique itself be easily demonstrated.

No big deal...

Would that technique alone work in a real fightin situation?? No. Will lying on your back waiting for the fighter to come at you work alone in a real fighting situation?? No.

It's not thatt this technique alone won't work -- the technique itself won't work. And, it shows that people aren't taking things from their fighting that do work and using that as the basis for their training/teaching, but teaching/training from a fantasy of what they beleive will work.

[Knifefighter]

A friend of mine who studies BJJ (and is also twenty years younger) wanted to spar with me. He's only got a few years in BJJ... so funny enough for him... sparring meant starting on the ground, on his back. Ha! Is that fantasy-based then?? NO... it is simply just a breakdown of the learning progression into basic concepts and a simpler timeframe.

Again, big difference between working positional training of the guard and doing something like chi sao. In a fight, you will use the guard the same way you use it in practice... not so with chi sao.

[Knifefighter]

ok, list the one's you've spotted
And nothing general, get right down to the point and give solid examples. List practitioners, lineages, etc if you'd like. Be specific as possible so we know where you're coming from. Typical answers like "all fantasy-based WC, or aikido, etc" don't count.

Here are a few good ones to start with:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEmRI9wjA_M&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3Ij8Ns1xSc&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-232DNU8_TI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiQRlr5NCwk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykD5Z8heVUs

[Sihing73]

Again, big difference between working positional training of the guard and doing something like chi sao. In a fight, you will use the guard the same way you use it in practice... not so with chi sao.

Hello,

Going back to a statement made by T earlier regarding the concepts being trained and explored Chi Sau can and does produce skills applicable in real combat. The problem is that many do not understand what Chi Sau is and is not. Chi Sau is about energy and directing energy it is not limited to the rolling or hands/arms connecting which is but one piece of the puzzle. I once performed Chi Sau with another WC Instructor who thought I was crazy because I was wearing a light jacket. Funny, it did not seem to bother my technique any. While I was in WT we had Seven (7) distinct sections of Chi Sau for training. Each section dealt with a different type of energy. The concepts learned for dealing with energy were directly applicable to fighting and none of them needed to start with rolling, etc. The rolling was simply a training method to assist in learning.

I would agree that a fight will look nothing like Chi Sau, however I would not agree that the concepts and skills developed by Chi Sau are not applicable. If you are in a clinch or close range situation and you are exerting forward energy and you "find" a hole to slip through, this is end result of the Chi Sau practive. It may look nothing like the training but the attribute is a direct result of such training.

It is rare that a technique trained in the gym will look EXACTLY the same when applied on the street. So my question to KF and T is what makes WC training and the application of concepts any different than any other art? Or more simply why is it that WC can not or is not effective?

IMHO, WC can be trained to be just as effective as any other art and in many ways is superior because it trains concepts and is not limited to techniques. Of course, when one has a favorite approach it is easy to become convinced that is the only or best approach, while ignoring the effectiveness of other arts.

[Liddel]

I agree there are many unrealistic people out there. Thats MHO.....

Unrealistic people...that become teachers.

Its a shame people paint the whole community with this label of fantasy based training though, as well as the style.

I dont think people show demos like the one posted as a true representation of what theyd do in fighting .
What i see from a VT POV is a compicated series of movements that wouldnt happen nor look exactly like that.

From my VT POV, at the initial touch the defender had an opportunity to strike. Quick and direct = VT. But in this demo we see her block.......... Lop.......... then hit etc etc. The tempo is 'demo' paced not 'fight' paced.

Anyway ive come to realise that i cant get away from people saying VT is fantasy based cause i see it myself. But at the same time ive seen others that are more reality grounded, so i dont waste my time b i t c h i n g about those that do things different to me...thats thier perogitive.

I have this pov cause despite what T sez - i dont pay fees or wear little outfits my sifu would laugh if i asked why he doesnt call himself a grandmaster.... and there are many out there that share similar experiences.....

At the end of the day you know in your heart if you are fantasy or reality based...
and it just doesnt apply to learning a MA.


DREW