"Fantasy-base" martial arts

[Knifefighter]

Each section dealt with a different type of energy. The concepts learned for dealing with energy were directly applicable to fighting and none of them needed to start with rolling, etc. The rolling was simply a training method to assist in learning.

"Energy training" is a halmark of a fantasy based martial art. No funtional trianing method uses "energy training".

I would agree that a fight will look nothing like Chi Sau, however I would not agree that the concepts and skills developed by Chi Sau are not applicable. It is rare that a technique trained in the gym will look EXACTLY the same when applied on the street.

Watch any performance based human activity that is applied in real time against resisting opponents. All of these activities, whether combat related or not, will look almost exactly the same in application as they do in practice... boxing, BJJ, judo, MT, wrestling, volleyball, basketball, soccer, the list goes on and on.

If you are in a clinch or close range situation and you are exerting forward energy and you "find" a hole to slip through, this is end result of the Chi Sau practive. It may look nothing like the training but the attribute is a direct result of such training.

The clinch work of MMA, wrestling and MT comes directly from real time application and looks the same in practice as when done for real... which is why it works and chi sao does not.

So my question to KF and T is what makes WC training and the application of concepts any different than any other art?

Forms done in the air, techniques done against a wooden platform, and rolling hands in a manner that cannot be done for real.

[Liddel]

Here are a few good ones to start with:

Dale - i play the guitar.. i could provide just as many Bad guitar playing vids as bad VT vids from Youtube if not more !

But i still persevere with my guitar playing

The difference IMO is i could provide more good guitar playing vids than good VT vids.

Im not sure why that is honestly. IMO its not cause good VT doesnt exist. More that those with good training are more concerned with training than internet validation.

DREW

[k gledhill]

ignorance rears its head and opens its mouth

[anerlich]

No funtional trianing method uses "energy training".

Functional JKD's own Matt Thornton defines aliveness as follows:

Aliveness is timing, energy, and motion.

I know this comes down to semantics and different definitions of "energy", but that's what 99% of forum arguments are about, so I figured it was legit.

There is no question BJJ's emergence from Brazil was a giant wakeup call for MA as a whole. There were and are many lessons for serious MA's there.

[Knifefighter]

...

Speaking of fantasy-based martial artists.

[Knifefighter]

Functional
I know this comes down to semantics and different definitions of "energy", but that's what 99% of forum arguments are about, so I figured it was legit..

Functional systems do functional drills. "Energy" naturally comes from the aliveness, specificity and transfer of training from those drills without anybody ever giving it a second thought.

Non-functional systems do non-functional drills and justify them as being good for "energy development."

[doug maverick]

LOL @ believing the urban myth of guys walking around with razor blades in their mouths. Even bigger LOL's a someone actually trying to do that in a physical confrontation.

Tell you what... try putting a razor blade in your mouth and tussling around with someone. Get back to me on how many stiches you needed on the inside of your mouth and tongue... that's assuming you didn't swallow it in the first place.

no myth fool thats a fact, moron. i dare you to come to the south bronx or brooklyn and tell them thats a urban myth i ****ing dare you. watch how fast you go home with buck fifties across you face. people like you end up dead in the street for being so f ucking stupid.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I practice both WC and Pekiti Tirsia. Many of the "drills" are based on how to deal with the energy of an opponents attack. You also learn to apply concepts based on the energy of the attack not its shape. Consider the various angles trained with using the sticks. You do not need to apply technique A to deflect B as long as you understand the angle and the "energy" which can be applied from that angle.

You mentioned the Dog Brothers and their approach being more "reality" based than many others. It is interesting that much of their approach is based on Pekiti Tirisa.

I also find it interesting that Pekiti Tirsia is recognized by the Phillipine Government and taught to the indigenous Marines. It is also interesting that several Wing Chun Artists, Leung Ting, William Cheung to name a few also have programs specifically for training various Law Enforcement and Milatary units. Not too bad for "Fantasy Based" martial arts. Please be sure to let me know when some of those posting here can add this type of training to their credentials

Oh, for all of the naysayers and advocates of their approach being more realistic than others it is interesting that in 1998 the Pekiti Tirsia Organization held a full contact minimum protection stick fighting event. They invited all comers, BJJ and all, to attend and fight. In the end the only ones who showed up were other PT people. Where were all of the "realistic" fighters who tout their own superior training methods???

I make no claims to be a superior martial artists, but I also do not make it a practice of putting down others while offering no proof of their inferiority. Sometimes the biggest wind makes the most noise.

[k gledhill]

Speaking of fantasy-based martial artists.

speaking of ignorant

[k gledhill]

Functional systems do functional drills. "Energy" naturally comes from the aliveness, specificity and transfer of training from those drills without anybody ever giving it a second thought.

Non-functional systems do non-functional drills and justify them as being good for "energy development."

you dont know what VT is to even criticize it ....

[k gledhill]

no myth fool thats a fact, moron. i dare you to come to the south bronx or brooklyn and tell them thats a urban myth i ****ing dare you. watch how fast you go home with buck fifties across you face. people like you end up dead in the street for being so f ucking stupid.

I also know these gentlemen in London who will 'wet' you for a laugh, several times ....I have had them try it on me ....Dale your kinda living in gym land son, nobody really wants to hurt you in the gym, they arent hiding the knife.

[Liddel]

Theres so many out there with ideas of Dim Mak death touch syndrome, i find it funny how you guys center your arguments over things like chi sao forms and dummies etc.

The dummy is a VT mans protractor.
Forms are for dexterity and basic muscle memory for begginiers, a building block if you will...

Its not rocket science, not big deal....

So many things one could talk about with regard to "Fantasy based" MA's.
LOL


DREW

[duende]

It's not thatt this technique alone won't work -- the technique itself won't work. And, it shows that people aren't taking things from their fighting that do work and using that as the basis for their training/teaching, but teaching/training from a fantasy of what they beleive will work.

A pak/da technique will work Terance, but first you need to develop skillsets such as balance, range, footwork, positioning, bridging leverage and control of oncoming energy.

These skillsets come from training and over-time incorporating more and more resistance and challenges.

Anyone can jump in a ring with some protective gear and start banging away... While it's fun to be certain... I wouldn't call it a Martial Art... just a crude search for a lucky punch.

Again, big difference between working positional training of the guard and doing something like chi sao. In a fight, you will use the guard the same way you use it in practice... not so with chi sao.

Not true... Unless you think someone is just going to drop their arms to the side and let you get ahold of their body.

On the contrary, those of our students who train MMA find that Chi Sao is essential to their clinch skills.

[KPM]

Keith, the simplest way to see what a fantasy-based martial art is to look at where the strategies, tactics, tools, etc. come from (or, perhaps more precisely, how they are shown to be used) -- do they come from experience in fighting, in actually doing those things, seeing that they work well, and then training them, teaching them, etc. or do they come from something besides actual experience, like theory, unrealistic drills, etc. The former is reality-based martial art, the latter fantasy-based martial art (fantasy-based arts like to say they come from experience, but you of course never see it).

---So you then would posit that all of the techniques and strategies taught in BJJ and used in tournaments was directly derived from experiences in "real" fighting? I don't think so. And that's what I was pointing out in my original post. A lot of BJJ is just as much "fantasy" martial art as anything else because it is "sport" based.

[Knifefighter]

no myth fool thats a fact, moron. i dare you to come to the south bronx or brooklyn and tell them thats a urban myth i ****ing dare you. watch how fast you go home with buck fifties across you face. people like you end up dead in the street for being so f ucking stupid.

LOL @ being stupid enough to believe people are stupid enough to walk around with razor blades in their mouths.