"Fantasy-base" martial arts

[KPM]

Forms done in the air, techniques done against a wooden platform, and rolling hands in a manner that cannot be done for real.


---What about Thai boxers "shadowboxing", BJJ or wrestlers practicing the sprawl and other things solo...those are a type of "forms done in the air." What about Thai boxers working the pads or the heavy bag, or grapplers practicing with a grappling dummy....those are a type of "technique done against" something. And I still don't think rolling with a training partner in the gym as any different than doing Chi Sao. That is...if the Chi Sao is done properly.

[Knifefighter]

Oh, for all of the naysayers and advocates of their approach being more realistic than others it is interesting that in 1998 the Pekiti Tirsia Organization held a full contact minimum protection stick fighting event. They invited all comers, BJJ and all, to attend and fight. In the end the only ones who showed up were other PT people. Where were all of the "realistic" fighters who tout their own superior training methods???

The Dog Brothers host full contact stick fighting matches twice per year- open to all comers. The average turnout is between 30 and 40 fighters.

[Knifefighter]

Forms done in the air, techniques done against a wooden platform, and rolling hands in a manner that cannot be done for real.


---What about Thai boxers "shadowboxing", BJJ or wrestlers practicing the sprawl and other things solo...those are a type of "forms done in the air." What about Thai boxers working the pads or the heavy bag, or grapplers practicing with a grappling dummy....those are a type of "technique done against" something. And I still don't think rolling with a training partner in the gym as any different than doing Chi Sao. That is...if the Chi Sao is done properly.

What level of BJJ are you at?

BJJ has discovered that a vast amount of the technique they were teaching for BJJ tournaments simply does not work in an MMA setting, which is closer to "real" fighting.

Please list the vast array of techniques that are used in tourneys that do not work in MMA settings. Then I will list five times that amount that do work.

[Knifefighter]

Forms done in the air, techniques done against a wooden platform, and rolling hands in a manner that cannot be done for real.


---What about Thai boxers "shadowboxing", BJJ or wrestlers practicing the sprawl and other things solo...those are a type of "forms done in the air." What about Thai boxers working the pads or the heavy bag, or grapplers practicing with a grappling dummy....those are a type of "technique done against" something. And I still don't think rolling with a training partner in the gym as any different than doing Chi Sao. That is...if the Chi Sao is done properly.

Forms done in the air come directly from the movements done in forms, not from fighting.

Shadow boxing, sprawl training, working the pads, etc- all movements taken from and done just as they are done in fighting.

Big difference.

[sihing]

Dale,

Your the epitome of technique based thinking, that is why you have no idea what WC training is all about.

James

[Knifefighter]

I also find it interesting that Pekiti Tirsia is recognized by the Phillipine Government and taught to the indigenous Marines. It is also interesting that several Wing Chun Artists, Leung Ting, William Cheung to name a few also have programs specifically for training various Law Enforcement and Milatary units.

Military and law enforcement training... pretty much everybody and their WC grandmothers' supposed claim to fame.

The kung fu "master" from this infamous match trained marines, law enforcement and border patrol agents:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpzLlWZIiXo

After the fight, most people said he sucked.

[Knifefighter]

Dale,

Your the epitome of technique based thinking, that is why you have no idea what WC training is all about.

James

This coming from the ultimate theoretical fighter? Give me a break.

[sihing]

This coming from the ultimate theoretical fighter? Give me a break.

Thank you Looks like I hit a nerve on that one.

[KPM]

What level of BJJ are you at?

---What level of WCK are you at?


Please list the vast array of techniques that are used in tourneys that do not work in MMA settings. Then I will list five times that amount that do work.

---I'll admit that I'm no expert, but I've seen just about every Pride & UFC event that has been put on DVD. You can count the number of specific submission techniques that show up consistently on 1 hand.....rear naked choke, cross-arm bar, bent-arm bar, kimura....

[KPM]

Forms done in the air come directly from the movements done in forms, not from fighting.

Shadow boxing, sprawl training, working the pads, etc- all movements taken from and done just as they are done in fighting.

Big difference.

---Bong Sao, Ton Sao, straight punch, front kick....all movements taken from and done as they are done in fighting. The concepts of positioning and facing...all taken from and done as they are done in fighting. I think the difference is not as big as you would have us believe. Granted....individual techniques can and should be broken out of the forms and practiced with application in mind to make them more "realistic", but that's still "form done in the air." Just practicing punching is "form done in the air" and is no different than a boxer shadowboxing.

[Knifefighter]

I'll admit that I'm no expert, but I've seen just about every Pride & UFC event that has been put on DVD. You can count the number of specific submission techniques that show up consistently on 1 hand.....rear naked choke, cross-arm bar, bent-arm bar, kimura....

There is far more to BJJ than just submissions. Submissions are just the final products of hunreds of things that have to happen beforehand.

There are probably six or eight things going on at any one time just while someone is in someone else's half guard.

[KPM]

There is far more to BJJ than just submissions. Submissions are just the final products of hunreds of things that have to happen beforehand.

There are probably six or eight things going on at any one time just while someone is in someone else's half guard.

---No doubt that is true. But by the time these guys reach Black Belt level in BJJ I would assume that they have learned more than 5 or 6 submission moves! Why don't they show up in the cage? That has been my point. BJJ has a certain level of "fantasy-fu" to it as well.

[sihing]

There is far more to BJJ than just submissions. Submissions are just the final products of hunreds of things that have to happen beforehand.

There are probably six or eight things going on at any one time just while someone is in someone else's half guard.

LOL@ BJJ is more than just submissions, LOL again @ there are six or eight things going on at any one time while in half guard, this is just an example of "Fantasy Based Thinking", LOL

[Knifefighter]

---Bong Sao, Ton Sao, straight punch, front kick....all movements taken from and done as they are done in fighting. The concepts of positioning and facing...all taken from and done as they are done in fighting. I think the difference is not as big as you would have us believe. Granted....individual techniques can and should be broken out of the forms and practiced with application in mind to make them more "realistic", but that's still "form done in the air." Just practicing punching is "form done in the air" and is no different than a boxer shadowboxing.

Jerome Le Banner shadow boxing and fighting... notice the same movement patterns in shadow boxing and fighting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rtXaKKXBe8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_V92I9PtD4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-26yq9MKL_c


Wing Chun SLT form:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MAFO7dGj3k

Please explain how that is anything like the movement patterns anyone will do in fighting.

[Knifefighter]

LOL@ BJJ is more than just submissions, LOL again @ there are six or eight things going on at any one time while in half guard, this is just an example of "Fantasy Based Thinking", LOL

Have you been drinking? What the h3ll does that mean?