"Fantasy-base" martial arts

[Knifefighter]

---No doubt that is true. But by the time these guys reach Black Belt level in BJJ I would assume that they have learned more than 5 or 6 submission moves! Why don't they show up in the cage? That has been my point. BJJ has a certain level of "fantasy-fu" to it as well.

Please list the submissions that occur in BJJ tourneys (obviously excluding the gi based subs) that do not occur in MMA.

I can list a few for you that ARE pulled off in MMA:
Guillotine
Rear naked choke
Americana
Anaconda
Kimura
Triangle
Googoplata
Triangle/Arm bar combo
Straight arm bar
Umoplata/ankle lock combo
Knee bar
Heel hook
Head and arm choke
Achilles lock
Figure 4 foot lock
North South choke

Hmmm... seems like more than five or six.

Now which were the ones that are done in tourneys that are not done in MMA?

Probably the only two subs that have not been pulled off yet are the Darce and the Von Flu... and that is probably just because they are not that well known yet.

[sihing]

Have you been drinking? What the h3ll does that mean?

No more than normal bro Just trying to have a little fun with you, I guess it went over your head.

Basically, IMO most of us WC practitioners speak a different language than you, that is why you don't understand most of what we are discussing here. Unfortunately, most people that post things on youtube concerning WC, post those things that are what I consider very basic training methods. SLT, in essence is not really about fighting, rather it is about reconditioning the individual practicing it. To use the WC method, certain body mechanics and structures must be learned by the practitioner, SLT is the first step in this process, and is not meant to be represented as anything other than that. SLT teaches us to become stable in a stance and comfortable in a stance as well as basic arm shapes while standing still so that we can later on, in Chum Kiu form, do the samethings while in motion, which is how stand up fighting is done. No one is going to stand still for you, while you beat their head in, so we have to learn how to be mobile while simultaneously being stable so the power of our strikes is going into our opponents more so than back into ourselves (for every force there is a equal counter force, bla bla bla). This is just some of what we learn in forms practice, all of which is then reinforced and learned to a higher degree in laap sau, chi sau drills and sparring after that, as ultimately you have to learn how to enter and secure your position to be able to fight someone standing up before contact is made.

The best way to learn about this stuff (if your interested, if your not, then why do you hang around a forum like this???), is to experience it for yourself. Sifu Gary is right there in LA, and has a open atmosphere for visitors to his school, Boztepe is pretty open as well from what I have been told. Go visit one of these guys to see what's up, as there is little you can learn from reading posts on forums as compared to actual experience in something

James

[Knifefighter]

SLT, in essence is not really about fighting, rather it is about reconditioning the individual practicing it. To use the WC method, certain body mechanics and structures must be learned by the practitioner, SLT is the first step in this process, and is not meant to be represented as anything other than that. SLT teaches us to become stable in a stance and comfortable in a stance as well as basic arm shapes while standing still so that we can later on, in Chum Kiu form, do the samethings while in motion, which is how stand up fighting is done.

Don't you find it strange that none of the functionally based activities, from soccer to wrestling to tennis to basketball to running to lacross to baseball to skiing to biking to boxing, has it's practitioners begin learning movements and "reconditioning" with movements that look nothing like the movement patterns that will be done when performed live?

[Sihing73]

Military and law enforcement training... pretty much everybody and their WC grandmothers' supposed claim to fame.

The kung fu "master" from this infamous match trained marines, law enforcement and border patrol agents:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpzLlWZIiXo

After the fight, most people said he sucked.

Was he recognized by the government where the art originated? Did he actually teach and have a "governmentally" approved and recognized training program. See a lot of people have taught or hosted seminars for various groups, but how many are actually a bonafide recognized training source? I find it interesting that the Phillipino Government, which is still engaged in actual fighting with rebel groups, has chosen Pekiti Tirsia as its method for training its elite soldiers. But, hey when someone like you says its fantasy everyone else must be wrong. After all look at all of the people and groups you've trained

[Knifefighter]

Was he recognized by the government where the art originated? Did he actually teach and have a "governmentally" approved and recognized training program. See a lot of people have taught or hosted seminars for various groups, but how many are actually a bonafide recognized training source? I find it interesting that the Phillipino Government, which is still engaged in actual fighting with rebel groups, has chosen Pekiti Tirsia as its method for training its elite soldiers. But, hey when someone like you says its fantasy everyone else must be wrong. After all look at all of the people and groups you've trained

Of course the Filipino govt is going to chose one of it's native arts for its hand to hand combat training. That's pretty much a no-brainer there, especially since hand to hand combat is pretty low on the totem pole for military training, what with the invention of firearms and everything. Doesn't prove either its effectiveness or lack thereof one way or the other.

[sihing]

Don't you find it strange that none of the functionally based activities, from soccer to wrestling to tennis to basketball to running to lacross to baseball to skiing to biking to boxing, has it's practitioners begin learning movements and "reconditioning" with movements that look nothing like the movement patterns that will be done when performed live?

No, not really because the eastern world has a different way of thinking than the western way, you can see this in their religions, customs, medicine and in their training and application of fighting arts, and if it didn't work at all, we wouldn't have it available to us today. Concerning forms, all of them are basics if you ask me, and once you have learned what they are meant to teach you, you don't really have to practice them again, or if you do you concentrate on other aspects. Chi sau is just a way of taking static WC shapes and putting them into action in a very specific way (more alive training), after that you have to learn the concepts & principles of how to apply them to actual situations, this is all a process but some get stuck along the way. If I have a choice of practicing with a partner or forms work, I would always choose to practice with a partner, as this is way more benifical and alive. The thing is, with WC, you have to have the structure and mechanics built into your system first, this is a slow process for most, and when some finally get some of it, they get stuck there thinking it's the cat's meow, when in fact it is just the beginning of the development.

When I was playing competative tennis, I used to shadow swing and visualize myself playing all the time, I know it helped. But in reality, for me anyways, you can't compare sports to fighting or WC, because in fighting (especially WC) our goal is to at a certain level, control another person's actions, rather than a ball, puck, or non resisting entity, there's a difference. IMO this is much harder to do while stand up fighting, as compared to ground fighting where you have already taken the guys mobility away from him and can use the ground/gravity/weight/leverage to a much higher degree as a tool to defeat them.

James

[JPinAZ]

Ronin already told you that. You adapt it by using the same tools as MT, boxing, and wrestling do for the standup portion.

And I thought I already adress his post... why not read the thread...

[JPinAZ]

Here are a few good ones to start with:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEmRI9wjA_M&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3Ij8Ns1xSc&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-232DNU8_TI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiQRlr5NCwk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykD5Z8heVUs

Haha, too funny how you keep running to your GF T's rescue. Relax, take of the T's Super Hero cape and let T answer some of his own questions... if he can. Unless you are his newly appointed spokesman for when his mouth gets him in trouble?

BTW, I noticed he 'missed' this one...
For T, regarding all the fantasy MA's you've spotted:
"ok, list the one's you've spotted
And nothing general, get right down to the point and give solid examples. List practitioners, lineages, etc if you'd like. Be specific as possible so we know where you're coming from. Typical answers like "all fantasy-based WC, or aikido, etc" don't count."

[KPM]

Please list the submissions that occur in BJJ tourneys (obviously excluding the gi based subs) that do not occur in MMA.

---And why would you exclude the "gi based" submissions? Is it perhaps because there is an element of your "fantasy-fu" there?

I can list a few for you that ARE pulled off in MMA:

---I would despute your list. All of these may appear on occasion, but not all of them show up consistently. And wouldn't a Black Belt in BJJ still know far more submissions than are on your list?

Don't you find it strange that none of the functionally based activities, from soccer to wrestling to tennis to basketball to running to lacross to baseball to skiing to biking to boxing, has it's practitioners begin learning movements and "reconditioning" with movements that look nothing like the movement patterns that will be done when performed live?

---Do they run? Do they lift weights? Do they do other cross-training in the gym? These things rarely look exactly like the movements patterns of their sport either. Yet they do them for conditioning.

---Don't get me wrong Dale. I do think you and Terrence make a good basic point. But you try and take it too far. WCK certainly has room to update its training methods and approach and should strive to be as "realistic" as possible. But you would have us "throw the baby out with the bathwater"....to quote an old phrase. Rather than saying "you guys suck", you'd serve the forum better by offering ways in which to make WCK itself more of a "functional" or "reality" based system that you seem to think BJJ is. I happen to think that of all the TCMAs out there, WCK comes the closest to your ideal. So why not help it become even closer? Or are you here strictly because you enjoy telling people they suck?

[t_niehoff]

Don't you find it strange that none of the functionally based activities, from soccer to wrestling to tennis to basketball to running to lacross to baseball to skiing to biking to boxing, has it's practitioners begin learning movements and "reconditioning" with movements that look nothing like the movement patterns that will be done when performed live?

Exactly. This is because the process by which we humans learn and develop functional open skill activites is the same. Once you grasp that -- this is how everyone needs to learn/train to learn and develop to attain much in the way of skill-- you will realize that if you aren't using that process, your learning/training won't be very productive.

James responded with:

No, not really because the eastern world has a different way of thinking than the western way, you can see this in their religions, customs, medicine and in their training and application of fighting arts, and if it didn't work at all, we wouldn't have it available to us today

That's right, they do have a different approach to learning/training MAs, one that isn't very good for teaching/learning/developing significant levels of skill. It may have been the best they knew at the time, but we know more today, we have hundreds of years of experience (with athletic activities, sports, etc.) and scientific research to prove it. That way of training produces some lower level development which is perhaps better than nothing at all -- but that doesn't mean it is very good. The proof is in the results, both with the modern training method (which all good fighters use) and the tradtitional method (which has failed to produce any significant results).

[t_niehoff]

BTW, I noticed he 'missed' this one...
For T, regarding all the fantasy MA's you've spotted:
"ok, list the one's you've spotted
And nothing general, get right down to the point and give solid examples. List practitioners, lineages, etc if you'd like. Be specific as possible so we know where you're coming from. Typical answers like "all fantasy-based WC, or aikido, etc" don't count."

I'm not going to make a list of people -- this isn't personal. It is about learning/training methods. I have explained what fantasy-based MAs are (and I think it's clear why the tradtitional training methods support it). If you want to know if so-and-so's MA is fantasy-based, just apply what I've described to them. If you are not doing in fighting the same things you do in training as you do them in training, your learning/training is fantasy-based. If you are not starting with the fight, taking those things you can really do in fighting and that you know that from experience fighitng, and teach/practice those things, what you are doing is fantasy based.

[t_niehoff]

---Bong Sao, Ton Sao, straight punch, front kick....all movements taken from and done as they are done in fighting. The concepts of positioning and facing...all taken from and done as they are done in fighting. I think the difference is not as big as you would have us believe. Granted....individual techniques can and should be broken out of the forms and practiced with application in mind to make them more "realistic", but that's still "form done in the air." Just practicing punching is "form done in the air" and is no different than a boxer shadowboxing.

Do you learn to use the tan, bong, fook, pak, punch, etc. -- the tools of WCK -- as you will really use them in fighting? If so, then you should be able to demonstrate (1) this is how we train to do things and (2) here I am fighting and I'm doing those things just as how I train (practice) to do them. In other words, what I train to do corresponds to what I really do. Because isn't that really the test for good, effective training? Who thinks it is good training to practice doing one thing and then do another when you actually fight?

My point is that if 1 and 2 don't correspond, then 1 is fantasy -- it's not what will happen when you fight, it's what someone (who doesn't know better) believes will happen when you fight. That belief is a fantasy.

How can someone know what they can really do ini fighting? You can't through some theoretical, conceptual, intellectual, etc. construct -- through a beleif structure. You can only know via experience fighting. From seeing that yes, indeed, I can (or someone can) do that or that I can't do that. That is when it becomes a reality-based MA.

[MisterNoobie]

There is one huge difference in what you are doing with a functional arts such as BJJ. The system is set up so that, although you might suck at it now, all you have to do is keep training at it and soon you will be able to proficiently use those tools against full-on resisting opponents.

Knifefighter, I agree with you here. However, i think the same can be said for wing chun too. If i were of a blue belt level in BJJ, I still would not want to fight a good wing chun guy. I've seen how the hardcore guys train and frankly they look down right scary sometimes.

So if i get my blue belt in bjj and get beat up by a wing chun guy (which isnt a far stretch imo) is wing chun more functional than bjj? Does the grappling without strikes then become 'fantasy?'

[t_niehoff]

Was he recognized by the government where the art originated? Did he actually teach and have a "governmentally" approved and recognized training program. See a lot of people have taught or hosted seminars for various groups, but how many are actually a bonafide recognized training source? I find it interesting that the Phillipino Government, which is still engaged in actual fighting with rebel groups, has chosen Pekiti Tirsia as its method for training its elite soldiers. But, hey when someone like you says its fantasy everyone else must be wrong. After all look at all of the people and groups you've trained

Looking to others, including governmental authorities, to tells us what is or is not good training, who is qualified, etc. is just more reliance on appeals to authority. All we have to do is see if X can do those things in fighting as he learns/practices to do them in training. Simple. We can tell for ourselves -- we don't need anyone or any authority to explain it us or to use some sort of rationalizations (would the Gov't do it if it was fantasy?). If they can do in fighting those things they train to do as they train to do them, we will be able to see it for ourselves.

If you go to a BJJ gym, MT gym, boxing gym, etc. that's precisely what you will see. You'll see them teaching here's how to pass the guard, they will practice it (train), and then do it in sparring, just as they've learned it, just as they trained it. You can see this for yourself. The learning/training/fighting corespond 1-to-1-to-1.

With regard to pekiti, just ask a "good" pekiti guy to stick fight (like at the Dog Bros. gathering, for example) and see if they can do those things they train to do in fighting as they train to do them. Or, you can look at the two top guys pekiti produced, Tom Bisio and Eric Knauss (original Dog Bro.), and see how they fought/fight and just compare to how they were trained.

[MisterNoobie]

It's not circular. A martial art that is reality-based uses experience actually fighting as the basis for which to train, etc. It starts with the fight and sees what things actually work (either via experiement, trial-and-error, whatever) and retains thos things that prove useful. That's why they evolve. Fantasy-based MAs don't do that. They being with a fantasy, an idea, a "concept" (the fantasy) of how fighting should work. And they don't take the next step.

How do u know which art falls into which category?

Contrast that, for example, with those WCK people who teach that the biu jee is a finger jab attack, and show pictures, etc. of themselves striking with their fingers. Pure fantasy.

You think its impossible for a wing chun guy to attack me with there fingers? It may not work on Rampage, but that doesnt help me out at all if i'm mixing it up with a wing chun guy.

You don't understand what it means for a skill to be realistic. It is realistic because we can look at genuine fights and see that these things actually work as they are practiced.

Ok so if i go over to the local wing chun school and try my crappy grappling attacks on him as they perform wing chun techniques (which i'm sure they could) and get that on tape.. does wing chun all of a suddenly become functional? Or does this not qualify as a 'geniune' fight because I'm not an uber athlete. If not, then how good would my skill level have to be to qualify as 'geniune'?