Try to never mirror your opponent’s stance.

[sihing]

Interesting thread. Thanks for all the posts. For me, I don't care what stance the other guy uses. It does not matter. I waste time worrying about and responding to the other guy's stance. I need to stay focused on entry and controlling the lead elbow and center. That's just my point of view.

Actually this is a good thread simply for the fact that we are talking about something we actually can discuss, Mirrored or blindside parallel stanced fighting, Good or Bad, or somewhere in between?

Threads like this enable us to learn more about the WC system and what it is all about, even though it is a simple topic It sure beats the threads that involve defending the validity of the art itself as a effective training system.

James

[Phil Redmond]

Phil,
How many times have you geared up and sparred with him?

Me personally, no. He trains with Keith Mazza at the school and in a basement with some of the students in who live in Camden.NJ

[Knifefighter]

Me personally, no. He trains with Keith Mazza at the school and in a basement with some of the students in who live in Camden.NJ

Is he a teacher or a student there?

[Ali. R]

Who stays in any particular "position" when fighting? I would call this dead footwork.. If you are constantly making adjustments and attempting to work your leg/foot postion into his in order to whack his structure then I can't see how anyone is going to "stay" in any particular "stance" for very long if at all..

As long if someone moves his or her feet and not stand still, the footwork will be very much alive, and if one keep adjusting their distance and feet they cloud easily remain in the same stance… Remember the concept is negative space,, (no wasted movement) and if one looks at the clip very closely, one will easily see where the movement is wasted…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feLvs4-q6tE

Nice too here from you again YungChun…

Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

its hard to discuss mobility and responses etc..in words , thanks for showing your videos...
One day i can take a video of me and save a thousand words,

Hey man thanks,

I guess it not that hard for me, because I experienced every thing that I’m saying first hand as a pro fighter as well… When I make a thread I will never cross myself up… If I don’t know, I will sit my a$$ down and just listen…

Ali Rahim.

[YungChun]

As long if someone moves his or her feet and not stand still, the footwork will be very much alive, and if one keep adjusting their distance and feet they cloud easily remain in the same stance… Remember the concept is negative space,, (no wasted movement) and if one looks at the clip very closely, one will easily see where the movement is wasted…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feLvs4-q6tE

Nice too here from you again YungChun…

Ali Rahim.

I don't see the system or folks in real fighting staying in a particular stance very long or very often...

The system itself does not teach static positions, yes you can have a dynamic front stance, but that position must change and adapt in the moment.. That means, lead changes, at times no real lead, at times things in between.

If the idea is to stay or supposed to stay in one general position/stance throughout the entire fight (that takes more than a second) then I don't see that as something to shoot for, or work toward as a goal.. Even the classical expression of the system has no favored side..

Superior position via body movement is something that changes, is more dynamic from range to range, moment to moment and the footwork in the system and in real life reflects that--or should..

[Ali. R]

I don't see the system or folks in real fighting staying in a particular stance very long or very often...

The system itself does not teach static positions, yes you can have a dynamic front stance, but that position must change and adapt in the moment.. That means, lead changes, at times no real lead, at times things in between.

If the idea is to stay or supposed to stay in one general position/stance throughout the entire fight (that takes more than a second) then I don't see that as something to shoot for, or work toward as a goal.. Even the classical expression of the system has no favored side..

Superior position via body movement is something that changes, is more dynamic from range to range, moment to moment and the footwork in the system and in real life reflects that--or should..

Oh!! I see now,

YungChun, I see we’re are talking two different things… Never once did I mention footwork in the clip or in the beginning of this thread, (to much thought patterns) but only pivoting, in other words moving stance… Pivoting is adjusting ones stance, in which can be done quite easily in the terms of instinctive reacting to reaction (no thought patterns)…

Take care,

Ali Rahim.

[sihing]

I don't see the system or folks in real fighting staying in a particular stance very long or very often...

The system itself does not teach static positions, yes you can have a dynamic front stance, but that position must change and adapt in the moment.. That means, lead changes, at times no real lead, at times things in between.

If the idea is to stay or supposed to stay in one general position/stance throughout the entire fight (that takes more than a second) then I don't see that as something to shoot for, or work toward as a goal.. Even the classical expression of the system has no favored side..

Superior position via body movement is something that changes, is more dynamic from range to range, moment to moment and the footwork in the system and in real life reflects that--or should..

Another thing to remember, is that having superior position is not always the best thing to have if you have no control of your opponent. I can have the best position on my opponent, but if he is still able to react to my movement and attack as well, then what good is superior position. From the blindside as demo'd in TWC clips, and in Ali's clip, you temporarily have a superior position, having your two hands against his one, but the target area is also limited. When I was using this method, some would just lean away, use their arm to cover their ribs and retreat and try to reface me. When you don't have access to either the front or back of the persons body, your hitting is limited. In Sifu Lam's system, this is a position used mostly for hiding away from your opponents strikes and for closing/standing grappling/takedown techniques and strategies. Fighting for sure is not about static stances, but rather about being able to your use your tools while moving around and staying stable, all at the same time, so your punching power is always available. From my point of view, once you have secured the proper range, you will have need less footwork, and only small adjustments. The further away you are, the more footwork you need. TWC IMO is long range/triangle WC system, therefore less stability in the stance is needed, requiring more mobility instead.


James

[JPinAZ]

I total agree with what you are saying, but you have too understand one with the most direct and subtle movements always take the line first, especially when this is in mind; “attacking the attack”… As one can see from the clip when defending from a mirrored stance the power shot is way over worked.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feLvs4-q6tE


By the way great post…

Take care,

Ali Rahim.

I hear what you are saying. IMO, you set up this line, even ever so slightly/subtly prior to contact. If you 'just mirror' in pure sense (exact matching as if looking in a mirror) it gives no pre contact advantage for the person initiating the attack. So, they have to sidestep and give up space to try to find an angle. If you set a slight angle to give the advatage and then attack, you already have a superior angle/position, so no need for the aditional sidestep as in the video for the attacker.

From my POV, the attacker didn't even challenge your center or structure, so he gave you the time/space to do what you did. What I mean is, he never really addressed the bridge. I train this another way in that my goal is to take the defenders structure, space and timing away on entry, at first contact.

Of course no one is right/wrong here, just different perspectives

[YungChun]

Another thing to remember, is that having superior position is not always the best thing to have if you have no control of your opponent.

So if you don't have control then inferior is better?

What are you working for in movement?

I can have the best position on my opponent, but if he is still able to react to my movement and attack as well, then what good is superior position.

So if you can't take advantage of your superior position then are you going to take advantage of a worse position?

From the blindside as demo'd in TWC clips, and in Ali's clip, you temporarily have a superior position, having your two hands against his one, but the target area is also limited.

So a superior position is limiting?

Then how is it superior?

When I was using this method, some would just lean away, use their arm to cover their ribs and retreat and try to reface me.

Right.. They were working to a superior position from a worse position while you apparently did not take advantage of whatever position you had.

When you don't have access to either the front or back of the persons body, your hitting is limited.

I guess that would depend on what kind of "hitting" you are trying to do and where..

Moreover it would depend on what you plan to do from your "superior position" some might try to make it even more superior by breaking them down and preventing or limiting their ability to recover..

Let's see what Kevin thinks about flanks being problematic..

In Sifu Lam's system, this is a position used mostly for hiding away from your opponents strikes and for closing/standing grappling/takedown techniques and strategies.

Gary often talks about using flanks as I recall.. Something often seen in the system..and I am not talking about Blind Side whatever.

[Ali. R]

I hear what you are saying. IMO, you set up this line, even ever so slightly/subtly prior to contact. If you 'just mirror' in pure sense (exact matching as if looking in a mirror) it gives no pre contact advantage for the person initiating the attack. So, they have to sidestep and give up space to try to find an angle. If you set a slight angle to give the advatage and then attack, you already have a superior angle/position, so no need for the aditional sidestep as in the video for the attacker.

From my POV, the attacker didn't even challenge your center or structure, so he gave you the time/space to do what you did. What I mean is, he never really addressed the bridge. I train this another way in that my goal is to take the defenders structure, space and timing away on entry, at first contact.

Of course no one is right/wrong here, just different perspectives

You’re right on point!!!

I knew that was coming, wondering what took so long…

How about this, I’ll post a clip of a fourth degree black belt trying too my knock my block off by stepping to the outside, I mean really give it his best shot, hooks and all... I hope I don’t have too draw blood for you guys…

Ali Rahim.

[sihing]

So if you don't have control then inferior is better?

What are you working for in movement?

So if you can't take advantage of your superior position then are you going to take advantage of a worse position?

So a superior position is limiting?

Then how is it superior?


Right.. They were working to a superior position from a worse position while you apparently did not take advantage of whatever position you had.

I guess that would depend on what kind of "hitting" you are trying to do and where..

Moreover it would depend on what you plan to do from your "superior position" some might try to make it even more superior by breaking them down and preventing or limiting their ability to recover..

Let's see what Kevin thinks about flanks being problematic..

Gary often talks about using flanks as I recall.. Something often seen in the system..and I am not talking about Blind Side whatever.

Superior position is in relation to your opponents weapons, when you flank or blindside, the idea is to have more weapons available to use then the other guy & be further away from his other side weapon, that's why I use that terminology. That is the idea behind TWC blindside theory, and yes it is in Sifu Lam's/WSL system as well, they just don't call it blindside, and because of the different structure/body engine used, it is applied differently than TWC.
Basically for me I'd rather be more in front of my opponent, and make him not face me, than for me to set myself up in a position with the same benefit, do you get my drift. In the stuff I am learning now we do this and more. I like to use the example of a toy spinning top, when you touch that toy while it is spinning, your finger is automatically deflected to the side, away from it's center, this is what I think we are doing when people engage our arms while we are hitting them. Our Center Axis stays where it is, and we make them move to the side.

James

[Liddel]

When i want to lay out some knee stomps or low leg kicks i find a mirrored stance helps due to two simple facts - distance and timing...

Overall im with YungChun, constantly moving changing - so both stances are prefered by me and are dictated by what im given at any specific time.

Both have thier advantages IME.

DREW

[JPinAZ]

Another thing to remember, is that having superior position is not always the best thing to have if you have no control of your opponent. I can have the best position on my opponent, but if he is still able to react to my movement and attack as well, then what good is superior position.

I agree with this 100% - you are speaking the words I am trying too! (but maybe from a different POV) From watching the video, I feel the attacker gives up this position when he side steps as he enters - giving up that advatage.

From the blindside as demo'd in TWC clips, and in Ali's clip, you temporarily have a superior position, having your two hands against his one, but the target area is also limited.

Speaking in regard to the clips (since I have no exp. with TWC) I don't see the issue as the target area being limited, but not taking advatage of the position because of too much footwork (see above comment)

..From my point of view, once you have secured the proper range, you will have need less footwork, and only small adjustments. The further away you are, the more footwork you need. TWC IMO is long range/triangle WC system, therefore less stability in the stance is needed, requiring more mobility instead.

James

I agree with the first 2 sentences without a doubt. Not sure what you are meaning by the TWC referrence, can you give examples? Does the TWC referrence imply that it goes against the first 2 sentences, or doesn't fit well with those theories? (not trying to judge TWC or anything else, just looking for further dialog from your exp.)

[sihing]

When i want to lay out some knee stomps or low leg kicks i find a mirrored stance helps due to two simple facts - distance and timing...

Overall im with YungChun, constantly moving changing - so both stances are prefered by me and are dictated by what im given at any specific time.

Both have thier advantages IME.

DREW

When your mirrored facing with your opponent, do you step inside or outside of his lead foot, when you have a choice that is.

James