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Thread: Try to never mirror your opponent’s stance.

  1. #1
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    Try to never mirror your opponent’s stance.

    Try to never mirror your opponent’s stance (he’s in a right forward stance and you’re in a left forward stance, or the other way around), its just way to much movement while defending; you will have to do really deep pivoting in order to keep one on your outside… If you’re right-handed, fight right-handed, if your left-handed fight left–handed… But in most wing chun systems they fight dominate hand up front, so adjust accordantly…

    Just as I was taught to fight left-handed, but I’m really right handed and can fight both ways very well… I can write with my left and right hand, I guess I was just born that way… I teach all of my left-handed boxers too fight by pivoting deep off the front leg, that keeps one from going to your outside (a common practice for left-handed boxers and for right-handed boxers that are fighting a lefthander)… Here’s some footage on what I’m trying too say…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feLvs4-q6tE

    It’s just my opinion and some well-known facts within the fighting game, nothing more…


    Ali.

    _______________________________________________

    "Wing Chun is a “Mind Set”, which gives tangible meaning to "little ideal". If the mind set is weak then the ideal does not exist".
    Last edited by Ali. R; 11-09-2007 at 11:12 PM.

  2. #2
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    I used to love fighting from the mirror side (what I used to call a parallel stance), but now after re-evaluation I can see that it leaves little in the relm of controling your opponent. When you step outside of your opponent lead foot, in a mirror position, it is very difficult to effect his center axis or balance points. Yeah, you do have a slight positional advantage of your two hands against his one, for maybe a second or two before the guy refaces you. I'd much rather have control of his balance and position than the blindside.

    In your counter to the move, if your partner had his lead foot on the inside of your lead foot, instead of the outside, he could easily follow your center and take your balance away, no matter where you move to, but with the other foot position you can't as his leg is in the way.

    Just my loonies worth (and today that is worth more than your dollar ).

    James

  3. #3
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    A subtle slam at TWC? How nice. I wonder why orthodox boxers have trouble fighting south paws. Everyone should do what works for them personally. At our school we fight using a parallel and cross stances. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Don't live in a box. And for those WC purists, I have video of a WC Sifu in HK showing how YM taught him how to fight on the blindside. So obivously Yip Man taught that as well.
    For the real fighters, who cares anyway? No matter where you put your foot, a win is a win.
    Sifu Phillip Redmond
    Traditional Wing Chun Academy NYC/L.A.
    菲利普雷德蒙師傅
    傳統詠春拳學院紐約市

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  4. #4
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    I just prefer a solid and clean win, no slops… When I did tournaments it was very political, so if it didn’t come off clean you are subject to not get the win… In most tournaments that I was in, I was hit one to three times tops, because of this knowledge…

    If you had read my post very carefully you would see that the right-hander must do the same thing as left-hander; if he don’t, it will force his right side too work harder … But if you’re both right-handed, all your opponent have too do is switch legs forward; how you say “If it ain't broke don't fix it.”… If he switches legs,, then it’s broking…

    Never take my word for it, just try it for yourself…


    Ali Rahim.
    Last edited by Ali. R; 11-10-2007 at 04:25 PM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by sihing View Post
    I used to love fighting from the mirror side (what I used to call a parallel stance), but now after re-evaluation I can see that it leaves little in the relm of controling your opponent. When you step outside of your opponent lead foot, in a mirror position, it is very difficult to effect his center axis or balance points. Yeah, you do have a slight positional advantage of your two hands against his one, for maybe a second or two before the guy refaces you. I'd much rather have control of his balance and position than the blindside.

    In your counter to the move, if your partner had his lead foot on the inside of your lead foot, instead of the outside, he could easily follow your center and take your balance away, no matter where you move to, but with the other foot position you can't as his leg is in the way.

    Just my loonies worth (and today that is worth more than your dollar ).

    James


    That must have been an interesting find (coming from a parallel fight stance)…
    Take care, Dave and thanks a lot… I wont let you down…

    Ali Rahim.

  6. #6
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    Interesting post Ali!

    I think your theories are valid (mirroring is bad) - in the context of the video you provided. But I do not believe they are valid outside the video. IMO, both the mirrored & non mirrored are effective, depending on the way they are used. I will explain.

    In the video, with the mirrored attack, your opponent stepped off to the side when stepping forward - this is giving up space. This allowed you to counter, reposition, etc. It gave you the time and distance to do so, as well as allowed you to still have your structure and CL. Just from a technique POV, based on his attack and side step when entering in mirrored stance, I would say you didn't even have to move at all to take the advatage! A good biu sau to your opponents center when he stepped off to the side would have done the job.
    But, this is not the only way to enter on someone from the mirrored stance, and I know it can be very effective. One of the advatages from entering on the 'outside' in the mirrored stance is you put all your 4 weapons (2 hands & feet)against only a few of your opponents. But eating up the space with FORWARD intent is what makes this work.

    There are also disadvatages of attacking in a crossed stance (right lead leg vs right lead leg). You have all your weapons, but so does your opponent! Bridging the gap in this alignement can also be done safely, but there are similoar dissadvatages as well if you do not do it properly. IMO, nothing is perfect if we loose our WC 'identity', whether it's giving up space by side-stepping, not attacking CL, not controlling both arm, etc.

    Finally, in WC, we are taught to not have preference. You just except things as they are and deal with them. What if you are caught in that close range in a mirrored position, woulc you try to switch at that range to a crossed stance because you prefer it? I hope not, because you are in striking range and unless you are good you are going to get socked (but, from your vids you are good, so you can aford to take the risk more than others )

    At a further range, you can set up however you like base on your stratagy. But what if you DO find yourself in this mirrored setup at this range, not by your choice - do you just not enter your opponent because it is bad?

    Jonathan

    (PS, great post, hopefully you do not look at my disagreement as anything more than my POV from my experiences - I respect your bringing this up as well as posting a video to support your views. I look forward to the dialog and your responses - maybe we can have a good WC discussion here for once!!)
    Last edited by JPinAZ; 11-10-2007 at 08:46 AM.

  7. #7
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    I love this guy, great post

    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ View Post
    Interesting post Ali!

    (PS, great post, hopefully you do not look at my disagreement as anything more than my POV from my experiences - I respect your bringing this up as well as posting a video to support your views. I look forward to the dialog and your responses - maybe we can have a good WC discussion here for once!!)

    I total agree with what you are saying, but you have too understand one with the most direct and subtle movements always take the line first, especially when this is in mind; “attacking the attack”… As one can see from the clip when defending from a mirrored stance the power shot is way over worked.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feLvs4-q6tE


    By the way great post…

    Take care,

    Ali Rahim.
    Last edited by Ali. R; 11-10-2007 at 09:15 AM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Redmond View Post
    A subtle slam at TWC? How nice. I wonder why orthodox boxers have trouble fighting south paws. Everyone should do what works for them personally. At our school we fight using a parallel and cross stances. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Don't live in a box. And for those WC purists, I have video of a WC Sifu in HK showing how YM taught him how to fight on the blindside. So obivously Yip Man taught that as well.
    For the real fighters, who cares anyway? No matter where you put your foot, a win is a win.
    Boxer's are much less concerned with controlling the lines of an opponent, but rather more concerned with strictly hitting them, so yeah if that is your only goal then you could get away with blindside mirror fighting, with your foot outside the lead foot. You can say what you want about my TWC skills (since neither you or Victor have ever met me or trained with me to be able to assess them), when I tried this tactic or strategy on the guys in LA at Sifu Gary's school, it was easily defeated with proper facing and them eating my space and attacking my centerline. When you step outside the lead foot, you are chasing hands persay because you are stepping outside of the body line, that is why alot of your video's and Cheung's too, involve going around in circles. To me, at this point in my WC development, you can use this strategy is you want, and it may give you a slight positional advantage for a second or two, but it is not an adviseable one to use as you have done little to effect your opponents center axis or balance in anyway, thereby allowing him to easily maintain his facing and ability to follow you while you try to stay on the outside using two hands against one.

    On your closing the gap video, you use the wu/bong trap to the outside and mirror stepping position to close the gap and control the lead bridge. When you do this your setting yourself up to be trapped as your two hands are underneath his one and can be controlled easier when the distance is right (an old TWC student of mine tries this all the time when we play at chi sau, and he loses everytime because his structure is too weak to handle the counter I give him, I eat his space and use my structure to off balance him, while covering his hands and hitting). At the range you demonstrated it at, you will have little control of my arm or structure/balance (maybe further in you would have more success, I used to like to use this method when the guy had his arms bent in and closer to his body, thereby pinning his arms against himself with the wu/bong, and then stepping in). IMO it is not something to do and I wouldn't teach it to my students, but we are lucky to be living in the countries we do and are free to do what we please and believe in what we want to.

    This is not a personal attack on you, or Victor or TWC, just a discussion and in this case a difference in opinion.

    By the way I loved the old footage of Cheung in NYC back in 84', that was good stuff.

    James

  9. #9
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    Who stays in any particular "position" when fighting? I would call this dead footwork.. If you are constantly making adjustments and attempting to work your leg/foot postion into his in order to whack his structure then I can't see how anyone is going to "stay" in any particular "stance" for very long if at all..
    Jim Hawkins
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    "You should have kicked him in the ball_..."—Sifu

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by YungChun View Post
    Who stays in any particular "position" when fighting? I would call this dead footwork.. If you are constantly making adjustments and attempting to work your leg/foot postion into his in order to whack his structure then I can't see how anyone is going to "stay" in any particular "stance" for very long if at all..
    EXACTLTY. I do what works for me when sparring boxers with boxing gloves and with martial artists with MMA gloves. Why should I try to fix what isn't broken. I think I said this before but I will again. I'd NEVER teach what I can't pull off myself.

    Sihing with regards to boxers closing lines. Some do. We have boxers at our school and one is a pro. Also, I never said anything about your skills personally. I don't even know you.
    Sifu Phillip Redmond
    Traditional Wing Chun Academy NYC/L.A.
    菲利普雷德蒙師傅
    傳統詠春拳學院紐約市

    WCKwoon
    wck
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Redmond View Post
    We have boxers at our school and one is a pro. .
    Phil,
    How many times have you geared up and sparred with him?

  12. #12
    its hard to discuss mobility and responses etc..in words , thanks for showing your videos...
    One day i can take a video of me and save a thousand words,

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by k gledhill View Post
    its hard to discuss mobility and responses etc..in words , thanks for showing your videos...
    One day i can take a video of me and save a thousand words,
    Exactly....

  14. #14

    Stance

    Interesting thread. Thanks for all the posts. For me, I don't care what stance the other guy uses. It does not matter. I waste time worrying about and responding to the other guy's stance. I need to stay focused on entry and controlling the lead elbow and center. That's just my point of view.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Redmond View Post
    EXACTLTY. I do what works for me when sparring boxers with boxing gloves and with martial artists with MMA gloves. Why should I try to fix what isn't broken. I think I said this before but I will again. I'd NEVER teach what I can't pull off myself.

    Sihing with regards to boxers closing lines. Some do. We have boxers at our school and one is a pro. Also, I never said anything about your skills personally. I don't even know you.

    If it works for you, then that is great, for me, when I personally tried it against other VT practitioners it didn't. That doesn't mean the strategy is invalid or can't be used, it is just a low percentage thing. Sometimes you find yourself in positions in a fight that are not preferred but you end up there anyways, so it is nice to know what to do when in that position, which is something easily taught.

    James

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