Try to never mirror your opponent’s stance.

[JPinAZ]

I would like to point out that i am using Kev's post to reiterate a point that was made and not to in any way troll or disrespect him...i like this statement...

(...it doesnt matter what lead leg you adopt when at the flank angling into as the dummy side entry, and forwards to the available targets to strike and or unbalance as people say...the later section of chum kil teaches this when we do double bong sao's...either leg can lead regardless what side you attack...).


I like the fact that he reference the form Chum Kil to support his post.
So here is an opinoin from the 'new guy' ...

From looking at Ali's video at the start did anyone notice that he says several times that he is catching his attacker square. He did demonstrate that going to the outside works but at the same time it looks as though it will allow attacker to recover quickly. When Ali pivots into the strike its looks like a solid attack right to the center of the guy in the blue scrubs. No easy way to recover when caught and hit square. Using the mirrored stance is a very good attack/defense depending on how you follow through, just as Phil demonstrated, however it does attack right into the persons defensive structure which will involve a little more to actually reach the center.
I am not saying that working with a mirrored stance doesnt allow you to control a persons center because Phil's demo shows that it can be done. I, however, like Alis explaination of how the simple and concise pivot puts you directly on the center and hits the person SQUARE down the middle.

Small concise movements will allow you to react and attack while the opponent is still committed and doing his attack. In ALIs video...the attacker was still finishing his punch as ALI was already striking to the center of the pivot... catching him square. As there are no such things as 'heat seeker' punches...taking advantage of the opponents commitment to attack is good sense.

P.S. This is a **** good thread!!!

~Cg~

I totally hear what you are saying here. IMO, the 'flaw' I see in the video still stands - the guy in the blue scrubs did not even affect Ali's center, nor his structure, nore take away his space (in HFY, w als call this his raction time) when he 'entered'. As I see it, he didn't even really enter Ali's space at all, he just stepped to the side of it when attacking. This gave Ali all the time in the world to react and counter the attack - he still had his balance, sturcture and weapons at his disposal. So with this type of attack, I agree, Ali SHOULD hyave been able to take it apart. But I don't agree that it's because of a flaw in the strategy, just in the execution (by the guy in the scrubs).

Still, great thread - if you can pick through some of the crap

[Ali. R]

Spoken like a true WC theroretical fanstasy non-fighter.

Hush,,, what's that sound… Everybody look what’s going down…

Take care ‘champ’.


Ali Rahim.

[sihing]

I totally hear what you are saying here. IMO, the 'flaw' I see in the video still stands - the guy in the blue scrubs did not even affect Ali's center, nor his structure, nore take away his space (in HFY, w als call this his raction time) when he 'entered'. As I see it, he didn't even really enter Ali's space at all, he just stepped to the side of it when attacking. This gave Ali all the time in the world to react and counter the attack - he still had his balance, sturcture and weapons at his disposal. So with this type of attack, I agree, Ali SHOULD hyave been able to take it apart. But I don't agree that it's because of a flaw in the strategy, just in the execution (by the guy in the scrubs).

Still, great thread - if you can pick through some of the crap

That's my main problem with mirrored fighting JpinAZ, as you mentioned, you can't take the balance, structure and weapons away when you step outside and away from COM. It does give you a temporary positional advantage, that is if you are fast enough to pull it off. It may work if the timing is right against a jab punch or someone leaning in on you for a push, but that is because they are committed to their direction of force.

Just to share some personal experience, in the last few years of my TWC journey, I found that mirrored fighting (or what I used to call parallel stance fighting), was my favorite thing to do and pull off. At my Sifu's school in Calgary, when I arrived their in 98', and started teaching classes I found the majority of the people fought and trained from a X-arm/leg position (right lead vs right lead or visa versa), and when I started teaching them blindside mirror fighting they looked at me funny, that is until I taught them the how's and why's behind the tactic. For me I found it more difficult to fight from a X-armed position, now I know why. The structure in TWC does not allow one to absorb force or redirect oncomming energy to the COM too well (usually TWC recommends you step back and away with circle stepping, or exchange steps, etc..), since the balance is not from the ground and heel, but rather in the middle of the foot, and stepping is used rather than pivoting. When your feet leave the ground to step, the rooting is gone. Today, with my training in WSL WC, I find it much easier to deal with oncomming force and much more able to redirect it somewhere away from my COM. There's a big difference btwn the two art, and how they achieve the end result. TWC=Long triangle, longer range (as Victor stated in his brief explaination of mirrored fighting), more mobile footwork, WSL= Medium/Short triangle, closer in, tighter structure with the ability to accept incomming force and redirect it while attacking COM. I'm not saying one is absolutely better than the other. Both approaches have there time and place. For me, at this time, with the tools I have available and am developing, I feel safer closer in and on the attack, rather than further away and on the attack. That's just me though

James

[Ali. R]

Man, you guys are doing great posting here...


Ali Rahim.

[Knifefighter]

You see Dale, I could explain all of it, but you wouldn't understand anyways. You don't understand our training methods or even the way we apply what we do. For example, two guys that train in WC, if they chi sau together that is a good way to test their "Wing Chun" against one another (not to mean their actual ability to fight in a free form), but specifically within a WC platform, sort of like in BJJ rolling (when you roll do you allow punching and gouges, bites etc..?). When I first went to LA, that is what I felt, total control from the other guys, with me very rarely being able to counter or attack back. I know you think this represents BS training methods, of course you would think this if you don't understand, I would too. I had a guys with only 2 yrs experience pushing me around like I was some sort of beginner, never mind the training and lessons I got from guys like Ernie or Sifu Gary. For me, that's all I need to realise that there was something effective to this method of WC. Since then the more I visit with the guys in LA, and the more I train with people here, the more I realize how well the system can work, if and when someone puts the time and effort into learning it correctly, from somone qualified to teach it.

There are several flaws in your approach:

1- You are judging things from a chi sao perspective. The problem is that chi sao is rarely expressed in actual fighting, so you cannot use that as a barometer as to whether the stuff people are using against you is actually any good. BJJ, on the other, hand, is expressed in fighting almost exactly as it is done in training.

2- You have no idea how the stuff you have "felt" compares to what else is out there unless you went out and mixed things up with boxers, MT guys, BJJer's, wrestlers and judo guys.

3- By your own admission, you don't have much experience in full contact fighting. This means that you will have no idea regarding what is effective and what is not, just by "feeling" somebody doing something to you. The only way for a person without this type of experience to determine the effectiveness of something is to see someone else do it against other highly skilled opponents in full contact situations.

[Graychuan]

I give you some props on this one, Slick...




'There are several flaws in your approach:
1- You are judging things from a chi sao perspective. The problem is that chi sao is rarely expressed in actual fighting, so you cannot use that as a barometer as to whether the stuff people are using against you is actually any good. BJJ, on the other, hand, is expressed in fighting almost exactly as it is done in training.' - Knifefighter



Now lemme give you a little something to chew on...

In any conflict that starts with two STANDING opponents hand to hand will almost always express Chi-Sao in real fighting. It is a well known fact that the hand is quicker than the eye. Magicians have made thier living for centuries on this. Now..in a fight....if you rely on just your eyes to track strikes comming at you then you will eventually fall behind...no matter how fast you own hand to eye coordination may be. But the sense of touch is a lot different. Tracking an attack by being connected to it with guarding or asking hand allows you to sense attacks earlier and not be limited and fooled by the eyes. And as long as the ging-lik of the elbows are intact its easier to be at close range and not fall behind.

This is the beauty of sensitivity training. Once bridge contact is made via Pak-Da, Darting fingers or whatever then we use Chum Kil to maintain the contact.

Now think of so many of the MMA fights you see where the one guy gets his dome rolled because he never could get to the ground with his opponent and didnt really know what he was doing on his feet.

Lemme ask you, Slick....have you ever seen a Real hand to hand fight where the opponents didnt touch hands,arms first upon contact? And im not talking about those MMA guys who like to shoot for the legs.

I think not.

~Cg~

[Ultimatewingchun]

Go back and look at the vid that Cedric did on the first post of this thread.

The problem is...the guy in blue with the initial attack from the mirrored lead should not be coming in FROM THAT DISTANCE with his main centerline directly facing forward - it should be at an angle more similar to a boxer's stance (with the main centerline facing more towards his left - about 45 degrees off) - and lines up more directly later in the game when it's safe.

If he comes in from that distance directly facing his main centerline forward - Cedric might be able to pull off the counter he shows.

But Cedric's counter can easily be countered if the initial mirrored lead attack is done the way I just described.

Why?

Because the initial attacker's centerline (and therefore his entire body alignment) is now in a better position to immediately follow with a punch to Cedric's face/head WITH HIS REAR HAND - and Cedric's counter has been neutralized. With a possible rear leg roundhouse knee (or kick) coming to Cedric's groin in the following instant.

Because Cedric has just exposed his vital targets by immediately moving to his opponent's left to counter.

Cedric's counter can only work if the other guy comes in with his centerline facing the wrong way.

What's on that vid is not how you attack with the mirrored lead blindside strategy.

[Phil Redmond]

The structure in TWC does not allow one to absorb force or redirect oncomming energy to the COM too well (usually TWC recommends you step back and away with circle stepping, or exchange steps, etc..)

Not really

since the balance is not from the ground and heel, but rather in the middle of the foot,

Never the middle of the foot.

and stepping is used rather than pivoting. When your feet leave the ground to step, the rooting is gone.
James

So people who do MMA, box, or full contact and deal with people on the move are doing it all wrong then. Shifting in place works in static demos but not in the ring. I know that personally. There are so many misconceptions about WC and TWC in particular.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"The structure in TWC does not allow one to absorb force or redirect oncomming energy to the COM too well (usually TWC recommends you step back and away with circle stepping, or exchange steps, etc.) (J)

***NOPE. It doesn't "usually" reccommend that. Only if his force is too heavy.

.....................................

"And stepping is used rather than pivoting. When your feet leave the ground to step, the rooting is gone. (J)

***FOR A MICRO-SECOND. Not a problem at all.

But what you gain is lots of speed - since the friction from the pivot can actually slow you down.
The only exception being when you're in a VERY close quarter (almost clinch) mode.

[Knifefighter]

In any conflict that starts with two STANDING opponents hand to hand will almost always express Chi-Sao in real fighting. It is a well known fact that the hand is quicker than the eye. Magicians have made thier living for centuries on this. Now..in a fight....if you rely on just your eyes to track strikes comming at you then you will eventually fall behind...no matter how fast you own hand to eye coordination may be. But the sense of touch is a lot different. Tracking an attack by being connected to it with guarding or asking hand allows you to sense attacks earlier and not be limited and fooled by the eyes. And as long as the ging-lik of the elbows are intact its easier to be at close range and not fall behind.

This is the beauty of sensitivity training. Once bridge contact is made via Pak-Da, Darting fingers or whatever then we use Chum Kil to maintain the contact.

Now think of so many of the MMA fights you see where the one guy gets his dome rolled because he never could get to the ground with his opponent and didnt really know what he was doing on his feet.

Lemme ask you, Slick....have you ever seen a Real hand to hand fight where the opponents didnt touch hands,arms first upon contact? And im not talking about those MMA guys who like to shoot for the legs.

Hey Slick-

Maybe you could point me to an example of your chi sao being "expressed" in something other than your B.S. demos.

[Phil Redmond]

"The structure in TWC does not allow one to absorb force or redirect oncomming energy to the COM too well (usually TWC recommends you step back and away with circle stepping, or exchange steps, etc.) (J)

***NOPE. It doesn't "usually" reccommend that. Only if his force is too heavy.

.....................................

"And stepping is used rather than pivoting. When your feet leave the ground to step, the rooting is gone. (J)

***FOR A MICRO-SECOND. Not a problem at all.

But what you gain is lots of speed - since the friction from the pivot can actually slow you down.
The only exception being when you're in a VERY close quarter (almost clinch) mode.

Hey Victor, you do know a little something
Where do all these myths regading TWC come from? Like TWC does not allow one to absorb force or redirect oncomming energy to the COM too well.
The last seminar Sifu did in NJ disproves that idea. If a fighter can't control force coming to his COM he's SOL.
We also fight cross leg. Every situation has to be evaluated and dealt with regardless of which leg is forward. I also advocate knowing how to fight both left and right lead.
You may have to fight with a sliced, cut, or broken arm. You wouldn't want to lead with that arm so you have to be able to adapt. Don't live in a box is the saying at our school.
(Terence will smile at this one), the way to figure out what works is to fight with a resisting opponent who is trying knock the cr*p out of you. Otherwise all you have is strawman demos. Every fight I've ever had was with someone bigger and stronger than me. I've never lost or run from a fight. I appreciate others preferences but if what I do works for me I'll only change if I find something better. I do Wing Chun but I'm a martial artist first. I'll use whatever works.

[sihing]

Well, it seems like everyone has stated their case, and in the end I think we have all learned more about one anothers way of doing things. IMO this is the idea behind the forum we have here, and although we don't always agree, we still keep the respect between those involved in the discussion.

Good stuff

James

[Phil Redmond]

Well, it seems like everyone has stated their case, and in the end I think we have all learned more about one anothers way of doing things. IMO this is the idea behind the forum we have here, and although we don't always agree, we still keep the respect between those involved in the discussion.

Good stuff

James

This thread is a lot better than the my dad can beat your dad threads for sure. It's more important to become a better martial artist with no ego than anything else.

[Ali. R]

This thread is a lot better than the my dad can beat your dad threads for sure. It's more important to become a better martial artist with no ego than anything else.

Great post!!!

[Ali. R]

Go back and look at the vid that Cedric did on the first post of this thread.

The problem is...the guy in blue with the initial attack from the mirrored lead should not be coming in FROM THAT DISTANCE with his main centerline directly facing forward - it should be at an angle more similar to a boxer's stance (with the main centerline facing more towards his left - about 45 degrees off) - and lines up more directly later in the game when it's safe.

If he comes in from that distance directly facing his main centerline forward - Cedric might be able to pull off the counter he shows.

But Cedric's counter can easily be countered if the initial mirrored lead attack is done the way I just described.

Why?

Because the initial attacker's centerline (and therefore his entire body alignment) is now in a better position to immediately follow with a punch to Cedric's face/head WITH HIS REAR HAND - and Cedric's counter has been neutralized. With a possible rear leg roundhouse knee (or kick) coming to Cedric's groin in the following instant.

Because Cedric has just exposed his vital targets by immediately moving to his opponent's left to counter.

Cedric's counter can only work if the other guy comes in with his centerline facing the wrong way.

What's on that vid is not how you attack with the mirrored lead blindside strategy.

That's if one just stand there and do nothing, then that could happen to anyone...

Hey VICTOR MY NAME IS 'Ali'... or should I call you Vicki or Victoria, which one do you pefer Vicki or Victoria, I Know It’s hard for you to act civil but give it a shot...

Take Care,


Ali Rahim.