Try to never mirror your opponent’s stance.

[Wayfaring]

Let's say tan sao.. So say you penetrate with Tan, as this happens you drop the elbow, as the elbow drops the leg moves in; as the leg moves in and the elbow drops you are also angling; when the elbow has dropped the angle off is complete and you are moving in..Bang--you hit them with the Tan, should be one fluid movement that creates a small flank...follow with whatever..

Right which is why I'll PM you the link...

Honestly, when sparring with people with good hands like boxers or muy thai guys, penetrating with a tan sau doesn't really come into the picture.

PM me the link. I'll use it for further discussion purposes and not disclose it.

[YungChun]

Honestly, when sparring with people with good hands like boxers or muy thai guys, penetrating with a tan sau doesn't really come into the picture.

Well you were talking about the chi sao no?

If the concepts used with Tan can't be applied in fighting then why use it at all? The general concepts used in tan, the angle and use of the elbow for applying force from incontact as well as learning how to hit with it with the correct angle and elbow position, coordination with movement and so on is consistent IMO in fighting, same for any other movement or tool..

[Ali. R]

OK - so in a flanking step it's hands follow feet, not feet follow hands. That works too. Unless your hands are chasing something else and offline with your feet. Then you lose your structure and space, like your video guy.

One of my main points or lines to discuss and follow is that the flanking step is a turning motion, not a penetrating or pursuit motion. It works best with turning incoming force. Not pursuit or taking space.

So I want to have an outside flank on my opponent, 1 hand on 2, and with proper range to attack.

How do you set it up, and how do you get it done?

He lost his space because I took it from him when he tried to move…

He made a move that didn’t connect his center I made movement that did… If you look closely he (‘Redmond’) did not control his opponent’s center but pined his elbow on the attack, he only started controlling one’s center when he took a step in because he had too realigned his feet to do so (the long way home) … All one has to do is relax ones arms and don’t stress out, then one can move his feet when one’s elbow is trapped…

The guy basically let himself get trapped…

If one doesn’t ask or use forward energy (mon sao) on the top triangle, then it would be easy too plant your opponent’s front foot into the ground… Because when one does not ask with the “mon sao” or that type of energy in any way, his elbow will get controlled, (if one can control the elbow, then one can also control their opponent’s technique)…

But if one uses forward energy correctly, his elbow will no get controlled, then he will be able too move his feet… Again he did not do his flank attack from reverse side but from a mirrored “demo” position (see my point), because it really won’t work no matter how hard one try…

The best way too beat the so-called flank is too never mirror your opponent's stance…


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

Notice how I’m asking (forward energy) on my clip…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feLvs4-q6tE


Ali Rahim.

[Phil Redmond]

He made a move that didn’t connect his center I made movement that did… If you look closely he (‘Redmond’) did not control his opponent’s center but pined his elbow on the attack, he only started controlling one’s center when he took a step in because he had too realigned his feet to do so (the long way home) .

I moved with what I felt from the contact. (Chi Sao)

… All one has to do is relax ones arms and don’t stress out, then one can move his feet when one’s elbow is trapped….

I moved with what I felt from the contact. (Chi Sao)

The guy basically let himself get trapped

That's what I do.

. . . because it really won’t work no matter how hard one try…

I tend to not say what another can do. People have various skill levels. The Dutch fighter Remy Bonjasky is known for his flying knees from long distances. Other fighters know this and train to avoid it. But he still pulls it off. It's all about the setup.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqfDO2Hjeh8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4F-5Wpo9oBM
Those who can successfully perform parallel leg or cross leg techniques would beg to differ. As the old saying goes. I can show you better than I can tell you.

[Ali. R]

I moved with what I felt from the contact. (Chi Sao)

I feel you, cuz I do the same…

Ali Rahim.

[k gledhill]

Honestly, when sparring with people with good hands like boxers or muy thai guys, penetrating with a tan sau doesn't really come into the picture.

PM me the link. I'll use it for further discussion purposes and not disclose it.

tan sao is just a training position to develop something....it isnt what we freefight with, but we freefight with what it makes us do ...like jumsao.....

[Ultimatewingchun]

OK - Phil's video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgIXqSBYszo

An observation is that the flank step also corresponds to an attack to cover it while moving in. Is that a correct observation from a TWC perspective?

And how does that compares to a boxer/muy thai fighter's flank step and lead jab? What are differences?

***WELL for one thing, Phil was not using a lead jab in his sequence. That changes the dynamics quite a bit.

..............................................

"Honestly, when sparring with people with good hands like boxers or muy thai guys, penetrating with a tan sau doesn't really come into the picture." (Wayfaring)

***BECAUSE of the distance. You can't "penetrate" with tan, imo. You use it after penetration has been effected by somebody - either you or him. It's efficiency is when you're working very close range, ie.- you intercept/block/deflect a straight punch or a backfist of his with tan.

You don't actually penetrate his space outright with tan - otherwise you're inviting a hooking/round punch around your tan structure and into a hard target.

................................................

"If you look closely he (‘Redmond’) did not control his opponent’s center but pinned his elbow on the attack, he only started controlling one’s center when he took a step in because he had too realigned his feet to do so (the long way home) …?

***BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO GET THERE FIRST. If you want to "get home" - you need to work your way in - he's not going to give it to you. And pinning an elbow is one way of working the critical distance INWARD towards his hard targets, ie.- controllling and attacking his center.

.........................................

"All one has to do is relax ones arms and don’t stress out, then one can move his feet when one’s elbow is trapped." ?

***IT'S NOT your feet you have to worry about at that moment - it's his punches. If he's pinning your elbow - he's already close enough to hit you with something in a micro-second. Time to do some hands and let the feet follow....If you know the hands to do.

[Ali. R]

***WELL for one thing, Phil was not using a lead jab in his sequence. That changes the dynamics quite a bit.

But not the “math”…


Ali Rahim.

[duende]

One of my main points or lines to discuss and follow is that the flanking step is a turning motion, not a penetrating or pursuit motion. It works best with turning incoming force. Not pursuit or taking space.

Exactly! There's a BIG difference between someone turning or pivoting on you, and someone chasing down your center (even after you take a flanking step) and bulldozing you.

[Ali. R]

Exactly! There's a BIG difference between someone turning or pivoting on you, and someone chasing down your center (even after you take a flanking step) and bulldozing you.

My Man!!!


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

I would love too see someone demo the flank attack in reverse stance, nothing serious just a walk through you know, “step by step”…


Ali Rahim.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Originally Posted by Wayfaring
"One of my main points or lines to discuss and follow is that the flanking step is a turning motion, not a penetrating or pursuit motion. It works best with turning incoming force. Not pursuit or taking space."

"Exactly! There's a BIG difference between someone turning or pivoting on you, and someone chasing down your center (even after you take a flanking step) and bulldozing you." (duende)


***OH, BUT IT CAN BE a penetrating energy that BEGINS to attack and pressure his center if the pin on the elbow that accompanies the flanking step is directed toward his center-of-mass.

And as I said earlier, it's basically a straight line attack just to the outside of his lead leg and lead arm - and the "turning" is only done on contact with his lead elbow, ie.- the energy/force from your gum/pak sao turns the corner, so to speak, into his COM - even though your body moved straight up on a different line. (But your lead hip and shoulder will turn on contact with the pak/gum in the same direction - thereby adding power/force/energy to the pinning move). Not hard to do at all, really - and it does provide a "pursuit/taking space" type of effect.

That's the whole idea of a "pin".

[Ali. R]

***OH, BUT IT CAN BE a penetrating energy that BEGINS to attack and pressure his center if the pin on the elbow that accompanies the flanking step is directed toward his center-of-mass.

You step outside to flank and attack ones center of mass?
Is that just by stepping in or lopping the elbow then moving in on the center?

I’m not sure of that, but I never seen it demonstrated or used let alone in a reveres stance…


Ali Rahim.

[k gledhill]

reverse stance ? i need pictures