The Choy Lay Fut Project

[CLFNole]

I figured as much. I thought the clip was good and showed a very practical use of the chop choy especially the part as to when to use the panther vs. the standard fist. A lot of people get this confused and think its always a panther fist when the panther fist is truly designed for softer tissue areas rather than going against hard areas and bones.

Also do you think since CTS studied both Lama and CLF and since we share common techniques, that various aspects or ways one style does thing transferred over to the other style? Maybe he liked the way one style did something compared to the other.

[chasincharpchui]

to lamapai and others that use so choy instead of sau choy:

i merely asked a simple question to wat dialect 'so' was meant to be in
i was taught sau and not so. lkfmdc had to be the smart ass and ask if i had something uself to contribute, and the rest y' all can read urself

i will continue to critisize techniques regardless if its welcomed or not. if u dont wanna be critisized dont post on the net.

lkfmdc, im no master but u obviously are, a master of the chinese and english language, aand foremost a grandmaster of joking ur way out of every situation.

id hate to be somone that pays u hard earned cash to only learn to say 'knock knock' jokes or roll their eyes wen an aggresive person fronts them on the street.

thank god my master doesnt take my hard earned money and sell me lies.

[lkfmdc]

y' all can read urself

yes, they can read the entire thread and see exactly what transpired. You should re-read it also, and see if you can note how many people disagree with you... then try and get over it

i will continue to critisize

That was never really in doubt, since it appears that is all you are capable of

id hate to be somone that pays u hard earned cash to only learn to say 'knock knock' jokes or roll their eyes wen an aggresive person fronts them on the street.

thank god my master doesnt take my hard earned money and sell me lies.

LMFAO, what a clueless twit you are! Dear lord... you have no idea what you are talking about and it's so darn apparent.....

Take some advice, stop, you're embarassing yourself

[hskwarrior]

this issue is kinda funny

however, i use sow or sau choy......

but it reminds me of people saying.....low bun, lew bin, and of course Lau Bun........

there's only two characters, but 3 different ways to say it right there.......

guess its a preferential type of thing.

[CFT]

Frank, the issue is that different Chinese characters are being used so its different to your example.

The question still remains: "what should so/sou/saau mean regardless of what character is used"?

I would say that it should mean sweep, and there is a specific and standard character for that, but maybe it does depend on your lineage.

I think the confusion arose because someone (not on this forum) tried to find a written character to represent the term spoken in a village or regional dialect rather than standard spoken Guangdong/HK Cantonese.

[cjurakpt]

Frank, the issue is that different Chinese characters are being used so its different to your example.

The question still remains: "what should so/sou/saau mean regardless of what character is used"?

I would say that it should mean sweep, and there is a specific and standard character for that, but maybe it does depend on your lineage.

I think the confusion arose because someone (not on this forum) tried to find a written character to represent the term spoken in a village or regional dialect rather than standard spoken Guangdong/HK Cantonese.

I'm sorry - I didn't actually folllow this closely - is someone actually suggesting, regardless of the transliteration (I mean, who really cares), that the character used for so/sau/sow/saaauuuh/su-weeeee isn't "sweep"? I mean, duh, just look at the technique! it "sweeps" across (or down, or diagonally, whatever) - it's not like sweeping with a broom, I agree, but it is a sweeping motion - sort of like making a sweeping generalization (I know, we don't get those here so it's hard to reference), in a martial sense, right?

and I agree that the reason it could have been miswritten was that someone who taught the technique, said the name in their dialect, someone else heard it, wrote it as they heard it based on their own sub-dialect and then didn't bother to verify it; that and/or the teacher might have even been illiterate (!), so couldn't correct the character when asked (not saying that's it, just another plausible situation, since that is what happened with a number of the taiji names of techniques - so ha: you guys bicker over one character - big deal! over on the taiji forum we can argue about translations of entire sections or even the whole form!)

[CFT]

I'm sorry - I didn't actually folllow this closely - is someone actually suggesting, regardless of the transliteration (I mean, who really cares), that the character used for so/sau/sow/saaauuuh/su-weeeee isn't "sweep"?

Yes!

ha: you guys bicker over one character - big deal! over on the taiji forum we can argue about translations of entire sections or even the whole form!)

Yes, I came across an example a while back. Can't remember what family it was. One section was interpreted as "lazily dressing in clothes" (the motion of putting on clothes) whereas the other way was written differently though sounding similar and hence inspired a different motion/energy.

[nospam]

CLFNole

showed a very practical use of the chop choy especially the part as to when to use the panther vs. the standard fist. A lot of people get this confused and think its always a panther fist when the panther fist is truly designed for softer tissue areas rather than going against hard areas and bones.

..if you wouldn't mind clarifying, who the a lot of people that get confused about chop choy are? I would assume you are talking about non-CLF people, as I can't see how a CLF person would be confused about their own style.

Lama Pai Sifu

Your website states your CLF is Green Cloud, a style that could only be learned by monks or students of the Clear Cloud Monastery in Toi-San. Clear Cloud Style contains elements of both Hung Sing and Buk Sing, but has additional influences from other styles as well (such as Lama Pai, Bok Mei and Ba Gwa).

I never heard of Green Cloud CLF...although I was aware there were many branches than just the 3 more common. I am curious as how you reconcile the differences. Seems to me to be a lot of influences. For example...what aspect of Bak Hsing do you people incorporate?

nospam

[CFT]

Your website states your CLF is Green Cloud, a style that could only be learned by monks or students of the Clear Cloud Monastery in Toi-San. Clear Cloud Style contains elements of both Hung Sing and Buk Sing, but has additional influences from other styles as well (such as Lama Pai, Bok Mei and Ba Gwa).

lkfmdc cleared this up a while back. Clear Cloud and Green Cloud are one and the same. Sifu Parrella and his sihingdai had been using the translation "Green Cloud" based on oral transmission from CTS sifu. They only recently found out that the "ching"/"qing" character they had assumed was "green" was actually "clear" - they sound the same in Cantonese (and Mandarin I think).

Clear: 清
Green: 青

I think this is just a case of incomplete revision of his website.

[lkfmdc]

lkfmdc cleared this up a while back. Clear Cloud and Green Cloud are one and the same. Sifu Parrella and his sihingdai had been using the translation "Green Cloud" based on oral transmission from CTS sifu. They only recently found out that the "ching"/"qing" character they had assumed was "green" was actually "clear" - they sound the same in Cantonese (and Mandarin I think).

Clear: 清
Green: 青

I think this is just a case of incomplete revision of his website.

yes, we thought "ching" was "green" but found out it was "clear"... dumb lo faan

regarding the CLF CTS did (thus Lama Pai Sifu does), what was done at the monastery was never delineated as either Hung Sing or Buk Sing... just called Choy Lay Fut... it clearly had elements/influences of other stuff that was being done at the monastery as well.....

Additionally, CTS studied with several different CLF teachers after he left the monastery, making what he did even more mixed

For the record, CTS always just said "choy lay fut"... the "Green/Clear cloud" tag was an artificial creation we used to just define that what we do is neither Hung nor Buk

(though, of course, I'd be proud to be hung LOL)

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Actually, we had made an error many years ago, in translating the name of the temple which my teacher was raised in. We (my classmates and I) made an mistake in translating a character which sounded similiar and was even written similiarly.

The temple is called the Clear Cloud Temple.

Chan Tai-San was raised in the Clear Cloud Temple.

There is No Green Cloud Temple.

Hence, there is No Green Cloud Choy Lay Fut.

This fact is acknowledged by all of CTS students, except one.

However, it is still a fact. I was in Toi San. Nothing Green about any temple.

There might be a typo still left on my website, I'll have to check. But we found this out a few years ago, BEFORE I actually went back to Toi San for the first time in '05.

That being said;

It is very difficult to say what exactly was taught at the temple. From all the information I have gathered, the temple was know by many people as a place where many martial arts styles wound up. Knowing that years ago, CMA were a lot less concerned with preservation of their style's lineages and more concerned with preservation of THEMSELVES, it's hard to say what happened to or how a style was influenced.

I also know that my teacher had several CLF teachers, apparently Chan Family, Buk Sing and Hung Sing. We have earmarks and core combos and techniques from all the branches, 'L' shape openings, different Chaap Choihs, So Choihs, etc. Not to mention, of course, my Sifu's own preferences and interpretations that are certainly influenced from other styles and teachers.

In going back to Toi-San a few times, I have learned much about my Sifu's teachers, both in the temple and out, his classmates (lots of info about them), his professional boxing career and what their training was like.

I also spent a few days with my Si-Gung's son (70 years old) which was really cool, becuase he grew up around my teachers and his classmates. I also learned a few sets from him which were unfettered, as my Si-Gung was his only teacher.

Cool stuff. Also a lot of different stuff too.

You have to realize, although there is a lot of CLF in this country, most of it comes from three/four sources - Wong Duk Fei (Doc Fei Wong), Wong Dat Mau (Tat Mau Wong), The Lacey's and Chan Yueng Fa. Doc Fei Wong is from Lau Bun and a few other teachers, Tat Mau Wong is from Lee Kwoon Hung.

So all of this CLF in this country, if you think about it, comes from only 4 schools. I'm probably leaving someone out here, and if I've made an error, I certainly appologize. There are/were a whole lot more schools/lines than just 4, don'tcha think?

It's like, for the longest time, Yip Man WAS Wing Chun. Now, we have found out that there are many other lines of it, some with more forms, some with completely different forms all together. Reality of it is, NO one else does the YIP MAN version, except for YIP MAN and HIS Students. Yip Man created his version - no one else has one that looks similiar. Again, if I'm wrong, I welcome the evidence and no harm intended. I'm trying to prove a point/theory.

There are more interpretations to CLF that just what is in the few schools (that are large and popular) that are well known in this country. Some we have never seen/never will see, and some that are obscure.

Basically, there is a large KF ocean, bigger than the small pond that we get a chance to see. I think with the advent of sites like youtube, the pond is getter much larger very quickly. I think if we all get out there and share, we'll all be swimming in the ocean in no time.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

lkfmdc cleared this up a while back. Clear Cloud and Green Cloud are one and the same. Sifu Parrella and his sihingdai had been using the translation "Green Cloud" based on oral transmission from CTS sifu. They only recently found out that the "ching"/"qing" character they had assumed was "green" was actually "clear" - they sound the same in Cantonese (and Mandarin I think).

Clear: 清
Green: 青

I think this is just a case of incomplete revision of his website.

yes, it's just the water radical on the side..the three ticks, which we missed.

I guess if you add water to something green, it becomes clear! LOL

[Lama Pai Sifu]

a style that could only be learned by monks or students of the Clear Cloud Monastery in Toi-San. Clear Cloud Style contains elements of both Hung Sing and Buk Sing, but has additional influences from other styles as well (such as Lama Pai, Bok Mei and Ba Gwa).

I actually got the names of the monks and students in the temple as well. I also got to meet a guy (in his late 80's) who was Chan Tai San's boxing coach (see above post) and his father was my Si-Gung's SENIOR student. He died when Chan Tai-San was in his 20's, I believe.

[hskwarrior]

sorry bra, but when you are mentioning Lau Bun's lineage, GM Salvatera is the head master of Lau Bun's lineage. Wong Doc Fai is more Chan Family CLF.

[hskwarrior]

The Choy Lee Fut represented in the United states is as follows..........

Jeong Yim's Fut San lineage.......

Gm Salvatera: Head Master of Yuen Hai/Lau Bun's lineage

Paul Chu of the Chui Kwong Yuen Hung Sing lineage is in texas.

New York Hung Sing (Jeh Wing Bun lineage)


Chan Family CLF is represented by:

GM Doc Fai Wong, Chan Yong Fa, and the Ngan Yiu Ting lineage


Buk Sing's main representatives in America are:

Both Dave and Vince Lacey, Lai Hung.


and we cannot forget the Late Great Lee Koon Hung .........RIP.

So we have at least 9 Main CLF representatives in America.

Then you have the other schools who have a little Choy Lee Fut, picked up a few moves, or a few forms here and there.