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Thread: How UFC Got Started (Yahoo)

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knifefighter View Post
    Who were the "skilled" guys fighting in MMA in Holland and Japan in the late 80's and early 90's and what events were they fighting in?
    There was Bluming's group in Holland.
    There was a group on Spain too under Pedro Ruiz.
    I think there was one in Poland, but that may have come later...
    The group(s) in Japan I have to get back to you on that.
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  2. #47
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    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  3. #48
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    Were there people doing MMA/VT in other parts of the world than Brasil?
    Yes.
    Were they AS SKILLED as the Brasilians?
    NO.
    In Brasil it was an "offical sport" in the other parts of the world it was just training and "competitions".
    But to say that NOBODy and significant all around skills is erroneous.
    Better to say the Brasilian were probably the best and the rest was to much of a minority to "count".
    Psalms 144:1
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  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    I was refering to "Back in those days, nobody outside of Brazil had significant overall fighting skills".

    Sorry that wasn't clear.
    Even in Bazil there really weren't many, if any true cross-trained guys. All the Gracies were still pure GJJ. Marco Ruas is considered to be the closest to a true MMA guy. While his striking was top-notch, many say his ground game was nowhere near a real grappler's skills (Gracie, Severn, Taktarov). His submission wins in the UFC looked good, but they were mostly against guys with no ground game. While he improved, he was IMO not extremely well rounded when he first came out of Brazil.

  5. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by 1bad65 View Post
    Even in Bazil there really weren't many, if any true cross-trained guys. All the Gracies were still pure GJJ. Marco Ruas is considered to be the closest to a true MMA guy. While his striking was top-notch, many say his ground game was nowhere near a real grappler's skills (Gracie, Severn, Taktarov). His submission wins in the UFC looked good, but they were mostly against guys with no ground game. While he improved, he was IMO not extremely well rounded when he first came out of Brazil.
    Actually, all of the Lutra Livre guys were pretty well rounded and regularly gave the BJJ guys a tough time. They were probably the first of the real MMA fighters.

  6. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Were there people doing MMA/VT in other parts of the world than Brasil?
    Yes.
    Were they AS SKILLED as the Brasilians?
    NO.
    In Brasil it was an "offical sport" in the other parts of the world it was just training and "competitions".
    Which brings us back to the original point of the Gracies really not having a whole lot to worry about in terms of losing.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knifefighter View Post
    Which brings us back to the original point of the Gracies really not having a whole lot to worry about in terms of losing.
    Agreed.

    Which brings me to another thing I wanted to mention.
    In regards to those of us that have fought NHB/VT but have done so at a time when they were "unsanctioned' to put it mildly.
    Just because we can't "prove it" doesn't mean it never happend BUT, and this is crucial to understand, we can't compare the level of competion we had to then to what is around now.
    The vast majority of people I fought we NOT trained MMA fighters and most were "toughmen" types that, though not pushovers and still dangerous, do NOT comapre to trained fighters.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  8. #53
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    Are people better now?

    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Agreed.

    Which brings me to another thing I wanted to mention.
    In regards to those of us that have fought NHB/VT but have done so at a time when they were "unsanctioned' to put it mildly.
    Just because we can't "prove it" doesn't mean it never happend BUT, and this is crucial to understand, we can't compare the level of competion we had to then to what is around now.
    The vast majority of people I fought we NOT trained MMA fighters and most were "toughmen" types that, though not pushovers and still dangerous, do NOT comapre to trained fighters.
    My question is: Has the skill level really improved that much since then?

    At least in the amateurs, I would say no. I regularly go to local events and have to say that by and large, most people are unskilled (and untrained) immature boys that want to feel tough by beating some other untrained, unskilled, immature person.

    This is my main quarrel with MMA. However, this is not to say that significant talent does not exist in the MMA world, however Ii feel it is rare.

    -Blake
    "Gungfu is not just about fighting."

    "Repitition is the mother of skill."

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernTiger View Post
    My question is: Has the skill level really improved that much since then?

    At least in the amateurs, I would say no. I regularly go to local events and have to say that by and large, most people are unskilled (and untrained) immature boys that want to feel tough by beating some other untrained, unskilled, immature person.

    This is my main quarrel with MMA. However, this is not to say that significant talent does not exist in the MMA world, however Ii feel it is rare.

    -Blake
    There are two ways to look at things like fighting skills of a particular method:
    The base "everyman" level and the elite level.

    Its up to you to choose which one is your "yard stick" and make sure you apply it to ALL systems.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  10. #55
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    Good point

    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    There are two ways to look at things like fighting skills of a particular method:
    The base "everyman" level and the elite level.

    Its up to you to choose which one is your "yard stick" and make sure you apply it to ALL systems.
    Excellent point sanjuro_ronin. I wondered if you would call me on it...

    MMA like TMA have a somewhat of a bell curve of skill level. There are a majority of "decent" level people and very few "incredible" level people.

    My main beef with the MMA craze is that there is little to no morals taught within training (mostly, this is a generalization of course). TMA addresses this (usually). Without this component, it ceases to be a"martial art" but just a fighting art emphasizing brutality and fighting as a way of life.

    Just my 2 cents, though...

    -Blake
    "Gungfu is not just about fighting."

    "Repitition is the mother of skill."

  11. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernTiger View Post
    My question is: Has the skill level really improved that much since then?

    At least in the amateurs, I would say no. I regularly go to local events and have to say that by and large, most people are unskilled (and untrained) immature boys that want to feel tough by beating some other untrained, unskilled, immature person.

    This is my main quarrel with MMA. However, this is not to say that significant talent does not exist in the MMA world, however Ii feel it is rare.

    -Blake
    The amateur skill is better because many more people have done at least some ground/grappling training.

    The pro level is light years ahead of what it was back then. I think a good example of this is Matt Hughes' complete domination of Royce.
    Last edited by Knifefighter; 11-16-2007 at 11:12 AM.

  12. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernTiger View Post
    My main beef with the MMA craze is that there is little to no morals taught within training (mostly, this is a generalization of course). TMA addresses this (usually). Without this component, it ceases to be a"martial art" but just a fighting art emphasizing brutality and fighting as a way of life.
    Does wrestling teach morals? Does boxing or MT? How about soccer or basketball? Morals are almost always learned from one's family environment.

  13. #58
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    My main beef with the MMA craze is that there is little to no morals taught within training (mostly, this is a generalization of course). TMA addresses this (usually). Without this component, it ceases to be a"martial art" but just a fighting art emphasizing brutality and fighting as a way of life.
    TMA or classical if you prefer, rarely taught morals if ever.


    The amateur skill is better because many more people have done at least some ground/grappling training.

    The pro level is light years ahead of what it was back then. I think a good example of this is Matt Hughes' complete domination of Royce.
    100% correct, though I recall reading Rorion article on how Matt's victory was a victory for GJJ.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knifefighter View Post
    Does wrestling teach morals? Does boxing or MT? How about soccer or basketball? Morals are almost always learned from one's family environment.
    i think martial sports (in fact all sports) can in a way foster moral/spiritual/emotional or whatever development, along the lines of matt thorntons article on sport vs street.

    the thing is "street" m.a. or the BSPTMA (bull**** psuedo trad m.a.) i think foster psychological un-health!

    those eye-jabbing sifu-worshipping mofo's, wait till i slap an armbar on them for telling me martial arts are only for self defence

  15. #60
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    How come the history skirts aside UFC 5, was it? Shamrock and Gracie fought in the "Supermatch", or whatever it was, and wound up in a stalemate. Gracie didn't leave undefeated. Shamrock bloodied the crap out of Gracie, and exposed the weaknesses of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. When Shamrock stayed in the mount while Gracie was in the guard, then made sure he kept his hands and arms tucked, and his head to Gracie's chest, Gracie had nothing to work with, and just caught the occasional punch and elbow, and Shamrock just stayed where he was. It was the most boring match in history, but it pointed out something important: Gracie Jiujitsu was flawed in its approach, because it lacked offense, and relied on the gullibility of the opponent--like a chess game. Watching the match, nobody had any issues with saying Shamrock clearly came out on top.
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