How UFC Got Started (Yahoo)

[LeeCasebolt]

That is not reality.

Ask Mark Coleman.

Royce beat (almost) everyone they put in front of him, and a lot of the people they wanted to put in front of him wouldn't show, but there were good guys who wanted in and couldn't get there.

[1bad65]

Ask Mark Coleman.

Clyde Gentry spoke to him and he never mentioned that. Read the book I mentioned. As I said just about everyone involved iin early NHB/MMA was interviewed.

[MasterKiller]

I've seen several sources that documented Royce's barring of certain competitors, including I believe a Sambo guy. I'll see if I can dig something up.

[lkfmdc]

Look at these 'handpicked' guys resumes: Ken Shamrock- he was the current King of Pancrase. Minoki Ichihara- considered a top Kareteka in Japan, he was considered so good the Japanese media came overseas to cover his appearance. Gerard Gordeau- a highly ranked Dutch kickboxer, he had some NHB experience before UFC. Orlando Wiet- a ranked Muay Thai fighter. Remco Pardoel- a European Judo and Jiu-Jitsu champion. Pat Smith- the current Sabaki Challenge champion. Art Jimmerson- a top 25 boxer in his weight class.

I do BJJ, I'm hardly a basher, but lets face some facts. Rorion carefully manipulated the early UFC as an infomercial for GJJ. He chose Royce over Rickson because Royce was more ordinary looking, didn't look like a fighter, so he sold the product better.

As for the competitors

Ken Shamrock- was a stiff style pro wrestler in Japan, at that point a lot of Pancrase was still stiff style works. For all we know, the UFC was ken's first real MMA style fight. The Gracie family was very familiar with Japan, they knew about stiff style pro wrestling, they certainly knew it was "fake"

Minoki Ichihara- a karate guy who was actually smaller than Royce and had no ground experience. The one thing the Gracie family certainly knew was that a striker with no ground was not going to last long

Gerard Gordeau- a highly ranked Dutch kickboxer, see the above comment about great strikers who can't grapple not being a real concern to the Gracie family. His MMA background was in UWF (match with Maeda), very likely a work

Orlando Wiet- another great striker who had no ground training, ie a great way to promote GJJ, line up guys who to the general public look very dangerous, but of course after a trip, and mount they are like kittens waiting to go to sleep

Remco Pardoel- with Judo background, perhaps the only real threat to Royce in the entire list! But as he had been training in Brazil prior to his UFC appearance, I can bet they had a souting report on him already

Pat Smith- Sabaki Challenge champion. Yes, Sabaki, Denver's best The current Sabaki champion cleans my friend's pool (that's sarcasm)

Art Jimmerson- One gloved boxer who already had contracted a big paying fight two weeks later, he threw one punch, tapped out and collected his check and everyone was happy

The effectiveness of BJJ is not in question. But if you dont' think the early UFC were manipulated, you're fooling yourself

[sanjuro_ronin]

All valid points.

[1bad65]

I do BJJ, I'm hardly a basher, but lets face some facts. Rorion carefully manipulated the early UFC as an infomercial for GJJ. He chose Royce over Rickson because Royce was more ordinary looking, didn't look like a fighter, so he sold the product better.

Partly true. It was an infomercial, but Rorion knew it would be not by manipulating anything, but because he, Royce and other Gracies had done many challenge matches so they knew what to expcet and that their stuff worked. He chose Royce over Rickson for 2 two reasons; one was the size, but the other was that he and Rickson's relationship was already showing signs of strain.

As for the competitors, they were the best of the best WHO APPLIED or accepted an invite. Were there better guys out there, yes, but those guys chose not to fight in the UFC.

[1bad65]

I've seen several sources that documented Royce's barring of certain competitors, including I believe a Sambo guy. I'll see if I can dig something up.

Oleg Taktarov claims Rorion did not want him to fight Royce. It's a long story, but it's documented in the Gentry book. Long story short, Taktarov got in the UFC after Royce had left and shorly after that he lost to Renzo in another organization by ref stoppage in about 2 minutes.

[Ultimatewingchun]

And let's not forget about karate's 51 year old Ron Van Clief - who Royce choked out.

What - was Jon Bluming's top student, CHRIS DOLMAN, not available?

Was he ever invited? He had a huge reputation in European martial art circles at the time.

Or was it that a guy like Dolman (a top notch heavyweight karate fighter with serious judo/jiu jitsu ground skills) would be too much of a problem for Royce?

Do the math.

[sanjuro_ronin]

And let's not forget about karate's 51 year old Ron Van Clief - who Royce choked out.

What - was Jon Fleming's top student, CHRIS DOLMAN, not available?

Was he ever invited? He had a huge reputation in European martial art circles at the time.

Or was the fact that a guy like Dolman (a top notch karate fighter with serious judo/jiu jitsu ground skills) gonna be too much of a problem for Royce?

Jon Blumming, not Fleming.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ha!

Thanks for catching that. (I corrected it). Jon Bluming is actually Flemish/Dutch, I believe. I think that's where my confusion arose.

Or maybe I've just been drinking too much coffee!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ha!

Thanks for catching that. Jon Blumming is actually Flemish/Dutch, I believe. I think that's where my confusion arose.

Or maybe I've just been drinking too much coffee!

He is dutch, yes, the head of the Budokai, "creator" of allaround fighting, kyokushin 10th dan and judo 9th I think, or 8th, can;t remember.
I know a "bit" about Jon
And I think its Bluming with 1 "M", I typoed it. sorry.

[1bad65]

And let's not forget about karate's 51 year old Ron Van Clief - who Royce choked out.

Van Cleef begged to be let in. He actually went to Davie quite menacingly with some of his students. Davie said he could not do it because of the age. Van Cleef asked if he completed a marathon that was coming up if that would change Davie's mind. Davie agreed. Van Cleef did and was allowed in. At the RANDOM draw, attended by all the fighters and seconds, when Van Cleef was paired vs Royce, Rorion was not happy because of how it looked. FYI, Van Cleef was another guy who had done some NHB fights in Asia before the UFC.

Do the math.

What math is there to do? Did he apply? If so, does he say he was declined?


Do you do WC by chance?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Royce was very "classy" with Ron, he showed the old man respect and beat him without putting a beating on him.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Do you do WC by chance?"


***YES I do.

But I think you're really only seeing what you want to see. Listen, if Rorian didn't want Royce to fight Van Clief - it never would have happened. So who's kidding who?

[Ultimatewingchun]

From MasterKiller's first post:

"Rorion Gracie, the son of Helio Gracie and nephew of Carlson Gracie, the stars of the brutal, no holds barred Vale Tudo competitions in Brazil, which had a heyday in the 1950s, had more than just a clue.

He wanted to bring the style of fighting that made his family famous in Brazil to North America. Gracie met Art Davie, a martial arts enthusiast, who pitched the concept to Bob Meyrowitz, who had made millions producing the King Biscuit Flower Hour radio show. Meyrowitz's Semaphore Entertainment Group was on the ground floor in pay-per-view, usually promoting concerts.

The concept sounded intriguing. Gracie, Meyrowitz, and their associates came up with an eight-sided cage, the octagon, and billed their creation, the legalized street fight, as the Ultimate Fighting Championship."


***RORIAN was part of the whole UFC management. Of course he could have successfully vetoed a Royce/Van Clief match if he wanted to.

It's much more likely that he wanted this fight to occur since Van Clief had a "name". (But no ground skills).

Perfect.