How UFC Got Started (Yahoo)

[1bad65]

***RORIAN was part of the whole UFC management. Of course he could have successfully vetoed a Royce/Van Clief match if he wanted to.

It's much more likely that he wanted this fight to occur since Van Clief had a "name". (But no ground skills).

But I think you're really only seeing what you want to see. Listen, if Rorian didn't want Royce to fight Van Clief - it never would have happened. So who's kidding who?

Bull****. First off, Art Davie was the matchmaker, second of all it was a RANDOM draw done in front of the fighters and seconds. What would give Rorion the right for a 'do-over'?

Rorion was in management really in name only, especially by UFC 4. He was still a part owner, but more of a silent partner by then.

Speaking of WC, Emin Boztepe really embarrassed himself with his excuses for not attending.

[Knifefighter]

Once again Victor is clueless and is speaking of something he knows nothing about.

Art Davie tried to get the toughest guys he could get because he wanted to force the Gracies' hand into having Rickson fight.

There were advertisements in all the MA mags at the time trying to drum up the best fighters.

At 260 lbs and an elite level wrestler, Dan Severn was believed to be almost unbeatable until he came up against Royce.

The Gracies had been doing open challenge matches in the states for over 10 years before the first UFC and had never lost so they really had no reason to try to fix fights. They truly believed they could beat any non-BJJ guy with no time limits and the limited rules that were in place.

[Sihing73]

Speaking of WC, Emin Boztepe really embarrassed himself with his excuses for not attending.

Hello,

Depends on who's saying what. If I recall correctly Emin offered to fight any of the Gracies outside of the UFC venue in more of a streetfight type match. Location was an issue. Both sides made offers as to where and when but non one could agree. Easy for the Gracies to say Emin backed down, also easy for Emins camp to say the Gracies would not fight a real fight on neutral ground. IMHO proves nothing as everyone is full of excuses to sway their own camps.

Oh, I heard that a Baqu Sifu wanted to fight in the UFC but was turned down. Anyone know if there is any truth to this and if so who this person was?

[1bad65]

Depends on who's saying what. If I recall correctly Emin offered to fight any of the Gracies outside of the UFC venue in more of a streetfight type match. Location was an issue. Both sides made offers as to where and when but non one could agree. Easy for the Gracies to say Emin backed down, also easy for Emins camp to say the Gracies would not fight a real fight on neutral ground. IMHO proves nothing as everyone is full of excuses to sway their own camps.

Oh, I heard that a Baqu Sifu wanted to fight in the UFC but was turned down. Anyone know if there is any truth to this and if so who this person was?

You do not recall correctly then. He first wanted only Royce. So Rorion and Davie offered up a Superfight vs Royce. Then he suddenly had no problem with Royce, but he wanted Rorion now (Rorion was in his 40's by then). Also the Gracies kept trying to accomodate Emin, who kept coming up with new excuses. It's interesting to note than Emin never offered up a location, he only vetoed every location the Gracies offered up. Keep in mind too that Emin even got his lawyer involved over Internet board comments made! A true tough guy.

Also, around the time he was ducking Royce, there were other promotions popping up like Battlecade Extreme Fighting, IFC, MARS, and World Combat Championship. Had he wanted to prove himself he had PLENTY of other orgs besides the UFC.

Emin's excuses were so good he was better than Rudy Abel! It took 4 years, but Rudy finally fought. Emin has yet to ever fight MMA. The Gracies have along history of fighting, Emin is still 0-0. Attacking a senior citizen at a seminar does not count btw.

[Sihing73]

You do not recall correctly then. He first wanted only Royce. So Rorion and Davie offered up a Superfight vs Royce. Then he suddenly had no problem with Royce, but he wanted Rorion now (Rorion was in his 40's by then). Also the Gracies kept trying to accomodate Emin, who kept coming up with new excuses. It's interesting to note than Emin never offered up a location, he only vetoed every location the Gracies offered up. Keep in mind too that Emin even got his lawyer involved over Internet board comments made! A true tough guy.

Also, around the time he was ducking Royce, there were other promotions popping up like Battlecade Extreme Fighting, IFC, MARS, and World Combat Championship. Had he wanted to prove himself he had PLENTY of other orgs besides the UFC.

Emin's excuses were so good he was better than Rudy Abel! It took 4 years, but Rudy finally fought. Emin has yet to ever fight MMA. The Gracies have along history of fighting, Emin is still 0-0. Attacking a senior citizen at a seminar does not count btw.

Hello,

I have met Emin and knew him when he first came to the States. I have my own opinion of him which is more personal than based on his skills. I would tend to agree that the incident in Germany was a disgrace which proved nothing and should have never happened. However, Emin does or at least did posess fine technical skills. He is able to put those skills into action and apply them. It would have been interesting to see a fight between himself and one of the Gracies.

Having said that though, from a marketing perspective he probably did the right thing. As I said previously, both camps are full of excuses as to why this or that did not happen. The safest thing to do was to not fight so as to not risk anything. Still, no matter how much we speculate no one knows for sure what the outcome would have been, although it is fun to suppose Kind of like the computerized match between Bruce Lee and Ali.

[lkfmdc]

The "Bagua Sifu" (who, by the way could neither correctly spell nor pronounce the art he claimed to represent) was the guy Don Frye KO'ed in like a minute in his first fight (Ramirez I think his name was)

[1bad65]

I have met Emin and knew him when he first came to the States. I have my own opinion of him which is more personal than based on his skills. I would tend to agree that the incident in Germany was a disgrace which proved nothing and should have never happened. However, Emin does or at least did posess fine technical skills. He is able to put those skills into action and apply them. It would have been interesting to see a fight between himself and one of the Gracies.

Having said that though, from a marketing perspective he probably did the right thing.

Good post. From what I've heard Emin did start BJJ with the Machados awhile back. I've heard he is pretty good on the ground now. I think had he fought Royce back then he would have about as good as the other TMA guys, to be honest.

That last sentence is exactly why I feel Emin ducked back then. Way too much to lose. Keep in mind the Gracies first offered the fight to happen on UFC and after Emin vetoes that the Gracies were very adamant it be taped no matter where it occured. And yes, Emin had permission to tape as well. The Gracies were VERY confident and actually wanted the fight to be shown and taped. That should say alot.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Dan Severn was a wrestler with zero submission and striking skills.
Van Clief was 51 years old with no ground skills whatsoever.
Who was there in any one of those first 4 UFC's outside of Shamrock and Smith with any SIGNIFICANT ALL-AROUND FIGHTING SKILLS?

And the holes in both Shamrock's game and Smith's game were quite apparent. Nonetheless they both brought some real skills to the table that could be a threat. Granted.

But let me restate my question about Chris Dolman another way - just using him as one example. Because clearly many others could have fit the same bill at the time - if they really wanted to search out and invite the top fighters worldwide to compete in the early UFC/s...

And I'll start by saying that I've seen some footage of Dolman fighting nhb in Europe.

Assuming that some of you have also seen him in action - and given his size (he's a very big man)...

Does anybody seriously believe that Royce Gracie could have beaten him?

I find it truly amazing that anyone can fail to see that since RORIAN GRACIE was actually part of the UFC management team that there wasn't something very questionable and fishy about the whole thing: ie.- the fighters accepted into the UFC.

[1bad65]

Who was there in any one of those first 4 UFC's outside of Shamrock and Smith with any SIGNIFICANT ALL-AROUND FIGHTING SKILLS?

Do you know who else did not have 'significant all-around fighting skills'? ROYCE GRACIE!!! He couldn't have punched his way out of a wet paper bag. He had no clinch game, only the trip. His shots were not good at all, a HS wrestler had better shots. He even pulled guard a few times!

I find it truly amazing that anyone can fail to see that since RORIAN GRACIE was actually part of the UFC management team that there wasn't something very questionable and fishy about the whole thing: ie.- the fighters accepted into the UFC.

Get it through your head; Rorion did not run the show. He was a MINORITY investor. Art Davie was the matchmaker. Had they allowed Rorion to choose Royce and a bunch of scrubs, they stood to lose their money. Get real. Since the Gracies had issued an open challenge in the US for like 10 years before the UFC, and longer in Brazil, they were not hard to find. They put out the ads and Davie chose the best of the applicants. Even if these 'top fighters' you mention somehow missed the ads, once they saw the UFC they could have applied.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The Gracie challenge was/is well documented, to this day you can pretty much go to any GJJ or even BJJ school and "put up or shut up", for that alone, they have my total respect.

[Knifefighter]

Who was there in any one of those first 4 UFC's outside of Shamrock and Smith with any SIGNIFICANT ALL-AROUND FIGHTING SKILLS?

Back in those days, nobody outside of Brazil had significant overall fighting skills. Most grapplers didn't have much idea on how to deal with strikes and the majority had little or no experience with submissions... and the strikers were like fish out of water when they were taken to the ground.

As far as Sakuraba beating Rickson (who was 20 times better than Royce), he was a friggin' pro wrestler at that time who didn't have a clue on how to do an unworked match.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Back in those days, nobody outside of Brazil had significant overall fighting skills. Most grapplers didn't have much idea on how to deal with strikes and the majority had little or no experience with submissions... and the strikers were like fish out of water when they were taken to the ground.

As far as Sakuraba beating Rickson (who was 20 times better than Royce), he was a friggin' pro wrestler at that time who didn't have a clue on how to do an unworked match.

Some people in Japan and Holland would disagree with you.

[1bad65]

Some people in Japan and Holland would disagree with you.

And they would be wrong. While he beat several of the Gracies in 2000, he got tapped out by Kimo Leopoldo in 1996. Had he fought Rickson in the early NHB/MMA days, he would have lost.

[sanjuro_ronin]

And they would be wrong. While he beat several of the Gracies in 2000, he got tapped out by Kimo Leopoldo in 1996. Had he fought Rickson in the early NHB/MMA days, he would have lost.

I was refering to "Back in those days, nobody outside of Brazil had significant overall fighting skills".

Sorry that wasn't clear.

[Knifefighter]

Some people in Japan and Holland would disagree with you.

Who were the "skilled" guys fighting in MMA in Holland and Japan in the late 80's and early 90's and what events were they fighting in?