How UFC Got Started (Yahoo)

[Shaolin Wookie]

Does wrestling teach morals? Does boxing or MT? How about soccer or basketball? Morals are almost always learned from one's family environment.

Work ethic is perhaps a better word than "morals". And work ethic is more important than morals; work ethic teaches integrity, not as a rule, but as a habit. Morals bend and break, but work ethics don't. It's one of our great Western legacies, and oftentimes it was linked to martial endeavors--all throughout history.

BTW, I'm not talking political ethics, as these are constantly broken in the West.

[MasterKiller]

Work ethic is perhaps a better word than "morals". And work ethic is more important than morals; work ethic teaches integrity, not as a rule, but as a habit. Morals bend and break, but work ethics don't. It's one of our great Western legacies, and oftentimes it was linked to martial endeavors--all throughout history.

BTW, I'm not talking political ethics, as these are constantly broken in the West.

Lots of @ssholes work really hard, though.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Lots of @ssholes work really hard, though.

Yes. I'm an *******, and I work really hard. What's your point? Who gives a **** about morals?

Really, it's not a moral rule that I don't go out and get hammered every night. I've got to work, I've got my MA's, and I've got school. That's hard work, not some flimsy "voice from on high" BS.

[1bad65]

Shamrock bloodied the crap out of Gracie, and exposed the weaknesses of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu.

For the first 30 minutes Gracie was fine while Ken's kidney areas were swollen and red. Ken bloodied Royce with a punch AFTER a standup after the 30 minutes was up. He did NOTHING to Royce on the ground. Nothing.

When Shamrock stayed in the mount while Gracie was in the guard, then made sure he kept his hands and arms tucked, and his head to Gracie's chest, Gracie had nothing to work with, and just caught the occasional punch and elbow, and Shamrock just stayed where he was. It was the most boring match in history, but it pointed out something important: Gracie Jiujitsu was flawed in its approach, because it lacked offense, and relied on the gullibility of the opponent--like a chess game. Watching the match, nobody had any issues with saying Shamrock clearly came out on top.

Thats a big part of BJJ, it relies on using the opponent's aggression to beat him. When Ken layed there he did no damage, had he tried to actually DO SOMETHING, he would have opened himself up to more subs and sweeps.

When Shamrock stayed in the mount while Gracie was in the guard,...

Huh?

[Shaolin Wookie]

For the first 30 minutes Gracie was fine while Ken's kidney areas were swollen and red. Ken bloodied Royce with a punch AFTER a standup after the 30 minutes was up. He did NOTHING to Royce on the ground. Nothing.



Thats a big part of BJJ, it relies on using the opponent's aggression to beat him. When Ken layed there he did no damage, had he tried to actually DO SOMETHING, he would have opened himself up to more subs and sweeps.



Huh?

Um, that's the point. It showed that if you played Royce's game, you were just as good as him....that is, if you don't take the offensive.

That's why Gracie Jiu Jitsu was shown to be ineffective in itself, and why MMA became the stock trade. Just look at Royce v. Hughes. Point settled. LOL......pound the ground man.

Royce was valuable for what he meant to the development of MMA, and maybe as a patron for BJJ's expansion, but he's not the magic man everyone paints him to be. And that whole "undefeated" thing he had going all that time up to Hughes was BS.

Oh, and Royce wasn't looking great, even before the punch that rocked him after the stand-up.

[lkfmdc]

Sigh, the truth is always somewhere in between....

The early UFC's were niether mastermind elaborate conspiracy nor completely pure competition.

Rorion DID have a say in who was picked... but the point was, he wasn't looking to pick 5 year old retarded kids in wheelchairs... quite the opposite, he picked gusy who he knew the public THOUGHT were tough, karate guys, boxers, kickboxers, big muscle men.... then he proved that an average looking kid named Royce made them all look very bad with "pure water" (TM) Gracie Jiu Jitzoo

As pure strikers, a lot of those early UFC guys were very dangerous, but the Gracie family knew from experience how to deal with them, heck, they had Rickson cornering Royce and giving him strategy.

There is sufficient evidence that they didn't particularly want grapplers in the UFC. Like I said before, Remco Pardol (sp?) made for a nice variation because he was a huge guy and did Judo, but the fact he had been training in Brazil, was reportedly getting tapped by blue belts, and that the Gracie family knew this alreay... relatively safe bet

You might even say the Gracie family was a little conceited... I know someone who talked to Rorion after the Kimo fight... the had really thought he was just a Taekwondo guy, and the concept of steroids hadn't really been considered. It was a wake up call

[1bad65]

Um, that's the point. It showed that if you played Royce's game, you were just as good as him....that is, if you don't take the offensive.

Wake up! My point is if Ken had actually tried to attack Royse he would have lost. Look at it this way, a guy built like Atlas was scared to try and do anything but lay on a guy with no muscle tone and like 30lbs lighter. That PROVED the point about BJJ being a great style for self-DEFENSE.

That's why Gracie Jiu Jitsu was shown to be ineffective in itself, and why MMA became the stock trade. Just look at Royce v. Hughes. Point settled. LOL......pound the ground man.

Ineffective!?!? Did you even watch the early UFCs? MMA is a combination of arts and while this may be news to you, BJJ is one of the core arts of MMA. While Hughes won and won easily, no one can argue he trains BJJ as well as wrestling, boxing, MT, etc. That settles nothing. It shows a younger guy who has trained MMA for a longer time beat an older guy who was a pure BJJ guy most of his career.

[1bad65]

Oh, and Royce wasn't looking great, even before the punch that rocked him after the stand-up.

I never said he looked great. Read my posts. I said he inflicted more damage than Ken before the standup.

[Shaolin Wookie]

It's so easy to get you all riled up. It's almost fun....

[Shaolin Wookie]

Wake up! My point is if Ken had actually tried to attack Royse he would have lost. Look at it this way, a guy built like Atlas was scared to try and do anything but lay on a guy with no muscle tone and like 30lbs lighter. That PROVED the point about BJJ being a great style for self-DEFENSE.

Great, but just how long are you willing to lie on the floor? Seriously.....I'd have tapped out of sheer boredom. Hell, I nearly hit the stop button, knowing it would be a stalemate and nobody did anything. And you could say hte same thing about Ken. Royce was afraid to do anything but lay under a guy bigger than him. That PROVED the point about BJJ being a truly ****ty style for any kind of ACTIVE AGENCY.

[1bad65]

It's so easy to get you all riled up. It's almost fun....

I guess it's a flaw of mine, ignorance tends to upset me.

[1bad65]

Great, but just how long are you willing to lie on the floor? Seriously.....I'd have tapped out of sheer boredom. Hell, I nearly hit the stop button, knowing it would be a stalemate and nobody did anything. And you could say hte same thing about Ken. That PROVED the point about BJJ being a truly ****ty style for any kind of ACTIVE AGENCY.

It was a boring fight, agreed. But it showed that a much smaller and weaker guy versed in BJJ could not only fight a big, strong, trained guy for 30 minutes and look pretty good, he could do it FROM THE BOTTOM.

Royce was afraid to do anything but lay under a guy bigger than him.

When you are on bottom and the top guy has a good base, protects his neck, and keeps his arms in you really can't do alot. Of course the guy on top can't do much either.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I know I phrased it pretty poorly, hence our "spasticks", but that's the point I was getting at....you can't do much in that situation. Jiu Jitsu kind of relies on the stupidity of the attacker in a way....LOL....and it's engineered to take people out of their comfort zone so that they do something stupid. In general, people don't like being pinned, like any animal, and will do something stupid to get out of that situation. BJJ just capitalizes on that instinct.

[monji112000]

I know I phrased it pretty poorly, hence our "spasticks", but that's the point I was getting at....you can't do much in that situation. Jiu Jitsu kind of relies on the stupidity of the attacker in a way....LOL....and it's engineered to take people out of their comfort zone so that they do something stupid. In general, people don't like being pinned, like any animal, and will do something stupid to get out of that situation. BJJ just capitalizes on that instinct.

You are comparing apples and oranges. Gracie JJ and modern NO GI BJJ/ submission wrestling are two different things. Sport BJJ and NO GI BJJ/ submission wrestling are two different things.

Hughes vrs gracie was a no brainier before the match started. It had nothing to do with technique. Why not let a small guy like Royce try and do the same tactics that Hughes does... hmm its not going to work. Same reason why although Rampage is a amazing fighter his game isn't plausible for someone like Royce either.

Different people express themselves in different ways, and they fight/wrestle in different ways. Some people are more active given a situation other are more passive. If you got a big guy on top of you.. things take a different perspective.

All of the top guys in MMA have a variety of styles they train, BJJ is included in everyone's training schedule. That alone says allot about its relevance to the sport. You take a guy with great BJJ and questionable(possible not so questionable) standup .. you could have a top fighter. Just look at Serra . Every top fighter has his specialty and builds.

[Knifefighter]

How come the history skirts aside UFC 5, was it? Shamrock and Gracie fought in the "Supermatch", or whatever it was, and wound up in a stalemate. Gracie didn't leave undefeated. Shamrock bloodied the crap out of Gracie, and exposed the weaknesses of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. When Shamrock stayed in the mount while Gracie was in the guard, then made sure he kept his hands and arms tucked, and his head to Gracie's chest, Gracie had nothing to work with, and just caught the occasional punch and elbow, and Shamrock just stayed where he was. It was the most boring match in history, but it pointed out something important: Gracie Jiujitsu was flawed in its approach, because it lacked offense, and relied on the gullibility of the opponent--like a chess game. Watching the match, nobody had any issues with saying Shamrock clearly came out on top.

How much BJJ have you trained? Because it sounds like you are completely ignorant on the subject.

First of all Shamrock was not mounted, he was inside Royce's guard.

Second of all, the guard is primarily a defensive position. It can be used offensively when the opponent opens up to attack or tries to pass. If the opponent just lays and prays, he can keep the bottom person from submitting him, especially if he is bigger. That is the reason that BJJ emphasizes the top positions in its hierarchy of positions.

And thirdly... LOL @ BJJ lacking offense. BJJ is based on offense (takedown, maximize positional advantage on the ground, pound the opponent until he gives up a submission, and finish with the submisssion).

And finally, BJJ is not "engineered to take people out of their comfort zone so that they do something stupid", it is designed to obtain positions that give the opponent the fewest options so that you can impose your game on him.