How UFC Got Started (Yahoo)

[Becca]

Wake up! My point is if Ken had actually tried to attack Royse he would have lost...

That whole " my stuff is dagerouse IF you do what I want you to do" is one of the additudes most people detest about traditionalists. You are most definantly starting to sound like a traditionalist...

Sw's point was only that BJJ is not invincable and that this fight showed BJJ's main weakness. I have re-read every one of SW's posts on this thread, as well as yours. You are arguing that Shamrock would have gotten owned if he'd attcked more. SW's point is that the lack of offencive techinques is a the main weakness of BJJ. You are basically aruing with people who already agree with you...

[1bad65]

So how much BJJ have you done?

How is it a weakness if the other guy is scared to actually attack you? That is a GREAT form of self-defense right there. I'm no tradionalist, I never said my stuff is too deadly to train or test.

And AGAIN; before the standup Royce had done alot more damage to Ken. If you doubt me, look at his swollen kidney areas. I would bet Ken urinated blood for a good week after that fight.

Also Royce has a more defensive BJJ style. Other, more aggressive BJJ guys IMO could have tapped Ken even if he just layed on them and played safe.

[1bad65]

SW's point is that the lack of offencive techinques is a the main weakness of BJJ.

Let me guess, he has done no BJJ either.

You are basically aruing with people who already agree with you...

Huh? Your saying stuff about BJJ that is wrong. Stuff you would know is ridiculous if you actually trained in it.

[Knifefighter]

Sw's point was only that BJJ is not invincable and that this fight showed BJJ's main weakness.

The main weakness was what?

bad-
Don't give Becca too much consideration. She is someone who believes she is impervious to takedowns.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Why not let a small guy like Royce try and do the same tactics that Hughes does... hmm its not going to work. .

LOL....in my imitation of Royce's thick Brazilian accent:

"It's not about size. It's the technique. It's Gracie Jiu-jitsu!"

[Shaolin Wookie]

How much BJJ have you trained? Because it sounds like you are completely ignorant on the subject.

First of all Shamrock was not mounted, he was inside Royce's guard.

Second of all, the guard is primarily a defensive position. It can be used offensively when the opponent opens up to attack or tries to pass. If the opponent just lays and prays, he can keep the bottom person from submitting him, especially if he is bigger. That is the reason that BJJ emphasizes the top positions in its hierarchy of positions.

And thirdly... LOL @ BJJ lacking offense. BJJ is based on offense (takedown, maximize positional advantage on the ground, pound the opponent until he gives up a submission, and finish with the submisssion).

And finally, BJJ is not "engineered to take people out of their comfort zone so that they do something stupid", it is designed to obtain positions that give the opponent the fewest options so that you can impose your game on him.

I am a Gracie black belt under Rico Suave of Atlanta BJJ. Top that, hotshot. Oh, but you can't, becuase I'm in the guard, and you're inside it, see! You're powerless against me.

See....I can talk down to you, too, KF. And I sound about as mature when I do. I agree with most of what you usually say, but you can suck a c0ck on this one.

[Shaolin Wookie]

So how much BJJ have you done?

How is it a weakness if the other guy is scared to actually attack you? That is a GREAT form of self-defense right there. I'm no tradionalist, I never said my stuff is too deadly to train or test.

And AGAIN; before the standup Royce had done alot more damage to Ken. If you doubt me, look at his swollen kidney areas. I would bet Ken urinated blood for a good week after that fight.

Also Royce has a more defensive BJJ style. Other, more aggressive BJJ guys IMO could have tapped Ken even if he just layed on them and played safe.

Scared? Or patient? I think Shamrock played it smart. He played it just like Royce. Royce went into that match thinking Shamrock would come at him swinging like a bull, just like their prior matchup. Shamrock learned a couple of things, adapted his approach, and lasted 30 minutes against a guy who did less damage than him. It was all a game of patience, and Shamrock said: "Well, I'm going to go the limit against you, because I don't think you can beat me unless I do something stupid." LOL @ matching Shamrock against contemporary BJJ guys. Shamrock hadn't fought a whole slew of BJJ guys, b/c as far as I know, Gracie Jiu-jitsu wasn't that widespread in the US. He played it up for matching up against Gracie, the figurehead of the art, and showed he could do it (With his pro wrasslin' skills, no less--yeah, yeah, pancrase/shootfighting, or whatever)

I'm not a Shamrock fan, and I don't hate Jiu-Jitsu (tried it for a while, but didn't enjoy it much---but I don't like football either--it's all just taste...)

All I'm saying is Royce wasn't an unstoppable engine, and his much-lauded "technique" was rendered d1ckless and quite stoppable in the Shamrock match.

Let me ask you this: if Royce was in such control, and he knew how to defeat Shamrock so easily, why did the match go on for 30+ friggin' minutes and end in a stalemate? Technique, my @ss. There is a point when you have to admit--Royce had no f0cking offense! Sure, by many standards, he's a purist, and stuck to his BJJ more than nex-gen MMA.....but look at all his matches. He goes up against a guy that comes at him like a bull, he locks him up, the guy panics and stretches out an arm to brace himself and try to use force, and (kind of like a python) Royce ties him up. I don't remember much of what I learned last year in BJJ for the short time I did it, but one of the main things they stressed the first couple of weeks was ----you've got to relax! Don't panic!---and they said it to everyone in the class. Funny, they say the same thing in CMA....about the relaxation, that is. In Royce's other fights, he relied on the opponents' trend to panic. Shamrock didn't. 30+ min. stalemate. Case closed.

I much prefer the next era of Brazilian fighters like Wanderlei Silva. A guy that could control on the floor, but f%$^ me if you wanted to stand across from him.

[MSphinx]

Mr. Wookie, I kindly urge you to read Ken Shamrock's account of that match with Royce Gracie. You can read it here on Google Books:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=v...C8g3E#PPA34,M1

I'll just quote the relevant passage. The emphasis from the original:

I started developing a game plan in my mind. His whole bragging system was I'm in better condition, my skills are better, and I can beat anyone, anyplace, anywhere, anytime. I wanted to shut that bragging system down.To do that, I wasn't going to open with a flurry of punches. I was going to go in there, take him down, and then slowly wear him out, make him so dog tired that he just couldn't even stand. I was going to beat on his ribs and face, tear him piece by piece. And then, when he was lying gassed on the canvas, I was going to treat him like a baby. I was going to show the world that his conditioning wasn't better, that his style wasn't better. That he couldn't beat Ken Shamrock anywhere, anyplace, anytime.

So you see, by Shamrock's own account, the fight lasted so long purely because he was dragging along to wear Gracie out. He was almost stalling in effect.

[sanjuro_ronin]

So you see, by Shamrock's own account, the fight lasted so long purely because he was dragging along to wear Gracie out. He was almost stalling in effect.

Interesting interpretation of what Ken wrote...

...I was going to go in there, take him down, and then slowly wear him out, make him so dog tired that he just couldn't even stand. I was going to beat on his ribs and face, tear him piece by piece. And then, when he was lying gassed on the canvas, I was going to treat him like a baby...

Sounds like stalling and dragging it out to me...

[Shaolin Wookie]

Interesting interpretation of what Ken wrote...

...I was going to go in there, take him down, and then slowly wear him out, make him so dog tired that he just couldn't even stand. I was going to beat on his ribs and face, tear him piece by piece. And then, when he was lying gassed on the canvas, I was going to treat him like a baby...

Sounds like stalling and dragging it out to me...

LOL....but Ken's a sh1t-talker supreme. You can't expect him to be humble or realistic. Funny that he thought Royce had crappy conditioning, though. BJJ was just as tiring as CMA.....it's killer cardio. (but nothings as intense as capoeira, IMO--jasus, it's killer). I have my opinions about BJJ, but I wouldn't poke at any Gracie's conditioning. Except the old guy.

[1bad65]

For the 100th time: Before the standup Gracie had inflicted more damage.

As for Royce being a 'figurehead' of BJJ; Royce was not even a top-25 BJJ guy in Brazil. Alot of people try to spin Royce into the best BJJ guy in the world (except for Rickson), when he was nowhere near the best BJJ guy in the world.

Again; how much BJJ training do you have?

[1bad65]

BJJ was just as tiring as CMA.....it's killer cardio.

Do what?! You did see 'Sifu' Rudy Abel gas out in like 1 minute right?

[Shaolin Wookie]

Mr. Wookie, I kindly urge you to read Ken Shamrock's account of that match with Royce Gracie.

So you see, by Shamrock's own account, the fight lasted so long purely because he was dragging along to wear Gracie out. He was almost stalling in effect.

I don't understand what your point is.........isn't that my point exactly?

[Shaolin Wookie]

Do what?! You did see 'Sifu' Rudy Abel gas out in like 1 minute right?

Well, I didn't really see two well-conditioned amateur atheletes going at it, did I?

[sanjuro_ronin]

For the 100th time: Before the standup Gracie had inflicted more damage.

As for Royce being a 'figurehead' of BJJ; Royce was not even a top-25 BJJ guy in Brazil. Alot of people try to spin Royce into the best BJJ guy in the world (except for Rickson), when he was nowhere near the best BJJ guy in the world.

Again; how much BJJ training do you have?

When did Walid take out Royce ?? can't remember...

Royce may not have been the top or even the middle of the pack in the GJJ or BJJ, but neither was anyone else there.