zen, daoism, and other eastern philosophies

[JerryLove]

That is the first tennent from everything I can find.

The First Truth: Life Is Suffering
The Second Truth: Desire and Ignorance Cause Suffering
The Third Truth: The End of Suffering
The Fourth Truth: The Middle Path

There is specualtion (that I subscribe to, but cannot easily support) that the Zen Buddist section of Buddism is the result of the mixing of Indian Buddism with Chinese Daoism. So there certainly would be (and are) similarities.

[Nexus]

I don't think that Enlightenment was ever proposed as the goal in having the zen or tao philosophy structure. Each moment in life should be cherished as if it is possibly the last, and buddhism recognized suffering as the most enlightening times.

What was emphasized was the fact that enlightenment cannot come without suffering, as meditation will only bring you so far, and who needs meditation if they have no suffering?

At the moment you die, you are who you are, "enlightened" or not, and if you are filled with a love for all people/beings/life then it doesn't seem to matter anyways.

Just remember that setting a goal as to where you want to be can be a hindrance upon your progression in anything in life. Simply decide what you want to do, and do it, mark your progress upon what you can accomplish right now, rather then what you did yesterday or what you will do tomorrow.

- Nexus

(EOF)

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

[Scott R. Brown]

Jerry is correct. They are called the “Four Noble Truths” and have been compared to a doctor’s medical examination.

1. Life is suffering. (Diagnosis)
2. Suffering is caused by Desire. (Etiology of the disease)
3. Suffering can be overcome. (Prognosis)
4. Suffering is overcome by following the “Eight Fold Path”. (Prescription)


The “Eight Fold Path” is as follows”

1.Right Understanding
2.Right Thoughts
3.Right Speech
4.Right Action
5.Right Livelihood
6.Right Effort
7.Right Mindfulness
8.Right Concentration

“Suffering is caused by Desire” is often misunderstood because of how our culture defines the term “desire”. At its core it means; Suffering is cause by wanting something you cannot have. If you introspect into your own mind you will find that any time you get angry, frustrated or upset it is because you are not getting something you have decided that you want, need or expect. Someone cuts me off in traffic and I get angry. Why, because I think it is rude and inconsiderate. I want and expect to be treated with respect and consideration by others, I have not been treated in such a manner, so I become angry. The formula is the same for anything that makes you unhappy, angry, frustrated etc. These emotions create the suffering we experience in life. To transcend these emotions we must understand our attachments to the world of illusion (maya). It is our attachments, our insistence on cherishing unhealthy attitudes, that keep us trapped in a cycle of unhappiness. As long as I insist that the world conform to my personal view of what is right I will experience suffering. The world is not here for my benefit. I am but one of billions of individuals and the world does not conform to my view or anyone else’s. It is our responsibility to understand the structure, the underlying rules, of life and conform ourselves to these rules. This is the same as following the Tao. The reason we follow the Tao is to alleviate the stress that is caused by not conforming to it. Taoism may not use the same terminology, but its intent is the same as Buddhism.

Buddhism’s stated goal is the attainment of Nirvana. Nirvana literally means something along the lines of “snuffing out the candle”. The candle being your ego. Many believe that it means the elimination of the ego so that it is non-existent. This is a misunderstanding. It means to eliminate our ego’s need to control the world system, to have things occur according to our own idea of how things ought to be. We accomplish this by realizing that it is a game we cannot win on our own terms. Life is bigger than we are and it makes the rules. By learning to conform to the rules we gain happiness, we cease to bang our heads against the wall of life. When I was much younger I took a junior lifeguard course. One of the things we learned was how to make river rescues. The first thing you learn is to not swim against the current. You relax and flow with the current, but at an angle towards the shore. You follow the path of least resistance. This is practicing “wu-wei” (not-efforting) of Taoism. This principle seems obvious when swimming in a river. But is not so obvious in life.

All serious religions have at their core this attitude of submission, conforming to the Tao. In Christianity in modern times it is commonly termed, ”Let go and let God”, “Islam” itself means, “to submit” and by extension to Allah’s will.

Our egos have a tendency to want to control the world and the funny thing is our egos are transitory. Your ego can be equated to your self-concept, your self-identity, who you believe yourself to be. Who you believe yourself to be today is not who you believed yourself to be last year, 5 years ago or 10 years ago. Who you are is as transitory as everything else in life. We are able to live life under these transitory conditions, because there is a slow process of change over time between who you are now and who you were 10 years ago. It is the process of growth. If your identity instantly changed between who you were 10 years ago into who you are now it would destabilize your personality and we would call that a psychotic crisis. So the transition of our identity occurs slowly over time to give us the impression that we are the same person. Who we are at the core of our being is unchanging, but our personal identity in the world-system changes constantly. Our core being is like a leaf in a stream, it floats on the surface of the stream observing the changing countryside as it rides the current, itself remaining the same as the countryside changes around it. Our world-system personality is the stream twisting and turning constantly changing directions meandering aimlessly sometimes, sometimes rushing fast and furious. We must transcend this world-system identity if we wish to follow the Tao, reach nirvana, find bliss, know God, etc.

Sincerely,

Scott

[prana]

You guys are well taught :)
I am happy this forum has much wise people visiting.

[Nexus]

Well said scott, but if this progress of removing the envelope of the ego was done slowly and changes were expected to come in terms of years, what was the purposes of etheogens (halluciogenic drugs) and the 3-awakenings purposes?

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

[Scott R. Brown]

Nexus,

Thank you for the compliment.

Drug usage only provides the individual with knowledge and transient ecstatic experiences. It can cause more trouble than it is worth especially if the individual does not have a competent guide to assist them in interpreting their experiences. It is considered a short cut by some, but if you do not have the foundation that the knowledge you have gained is based upon, the knowledge is useless to you. It would be like being taught multiplication and division before you have been taught addition and subtraction. The one is the foundation of the other, to understand the former you must first understand the latter.

Our goal is to live in a continuing state of understanding. Nirvana, enlightenment etc. are states of mind not experiences. Bliss is experienced as a result of the cessation of the mental stress we experience by fighting the flow of life. Bliss is the consequence of attaining the proper state of mind, not the goal itself. Knowledge and experiences merely provide the individual with information. The information must then be processed, understood and put into practice. If the individual cannot properly interpret, process and apply the information gained from their psychedelic or transcendental experiences they are often better off not having them in the first place.

Many people who believe they are on the spiritual path in today’s world are really looking for spiritual powers, commonly called psychic powers or abilities. Some people have a talent for psychic abilities and some develop the skills without any special innate talent. These abilities are merely skills. Many people confuse these skills with spiritual knowledge or maturity. The two are not connected. It would be like considering Michael Jordan more spiritually advanced because he has an exceptional skill in basketball. Skills of any kind are not a result of spiritual advancement they are a result of talent and training.

I am not sure what you mean by the 3 awakenings. I tend to stick to the core teachings of Zen and Taoism and stay away from all the various and sundry, multitudinous branches of Buddhism or any other religion. The core of any religion is where the meat is, the details, methods, rituals, commandments etc. just confuse the issue. If you could tell me specifically what your question is I could probably address it.

Here is may attempt to explain what I think you are asking. In Buddhism there is what is called the “Sudden” school of enlightenment and the “Gradual” school of enlightenment. The sudden school is Zen (Chan). I personally believe that all enlightenment is gradual. There are certainly “Aha!!” experiences, but my experience has taught me that every time I have one there is another one on the horizon. It is easy for me to have this belief because my experiences have demonstrated it to me, but that does not mean my opinion is accurate. Perhaps there is a once and for all enlightenment, but for it to be truly a “Sudden” way it would have to come to someone who has made absolutely no efforts to gain enlightenment. I had a sort of epiphany when I was 15 years of age, an “Aha!!” experience, but it was not absolute enlightenment. I only gained insight into what the true reality was and once again knowledge is not the same as enlightenment. It merely points the direction we should look. My experience started me on the journey to know and understand. It created more stress in my life not less because I realized that I was out of balance. It was a painful experience that motivated me, just as all painful experiences motivate us to avoid similar experiences.

The Bhagavad Gita teaches that there are three primary paths to enlightenment. Each individual has a propensity for one: The Way of Knowledge, The Way of Devotion, and The Way of Action.

The Way of Knowledge is the path of the intellectually oriented. This is considered the most difficult path but it also leads to the most complete understanding. These are the people that can explain the ins and outs of how something is, why it is and what the benefits and detriments are. These people can describe the path most clearly, but misapplied these are the same people who make religion too complicated for the general public to understand.

The Way of Devotion is the path of the feeling oriented. These people tend to express their experiences in poetry and art. They do not need to understand how and why something works or why it is the way it is. These people completely surrender themselves to the Deity. They are able to immerse themselves completely in their devotion. Misapplied these people can be easily manipulated by cults because they tend to give themselves completely to the leader and have the tendency to not question authority.

The Way of Action is for the activity oriented people. These are the people that serve others through selfless actions. They perform their activities as a means of service to mankind and by extension the deity in each of us. They run soup kitchens and build homes for the homeless, become nurses and doctors etc. Misapplied these people run themselves into the ground and end up emotionally drained. They spend so much time caring for others they do not care for themselves.

This is my attempt to answer what I think your questions were. If I have not answered them please be more specific and I will be happy to try again.

Sincerely,

Scott

[Nexus]

So Scott, if I am understanding what you are saying in reference to the usage of etheogens, you are saying that those experiences are more of a glimpse than anything else. Hopefully an eye-opener to the individual and to steer them onto the path of enlightenment so to speak.

Here is where im driving at.

How much of the conscious thought stream is the ego and how much of it is simply the monkey mind?

And is the ego expressed through thoughts or actions (physical/verbal)?

Should one consider what the mind thinks when it is negative to be thoughts spawned by the ego or by the unfocussed mind?

Looking for your opinion. Thanks!

- Ben

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

[Scott R. Brown]

Nexus,

Yes, that is what I am getting at with the etheogens. Since enlightenment is a state of mind it is not something that you can acquire in the way you would acquire a new coat. You do not just put it on like a garment, It is something that you grow into or rather that grows out of you. I think of it as a perspective of life, a way in which we view the world. That is why in Zen it is referred to as direct seeing. It is not direct seeing as with the eye, it is seeing as in direct understanding, first hand experience. It is the manner in which we interpret our experiences. Therefore it is a learned ability. First we must discover the correct manner in which to perceive the world and then we must train our minds to constantly view it in that manner. The reason that it is difficult is because we start out in life conditioned to conform to the world system. Modern society makes it especially difficult because there are so many distractions to seduce our minds away from the true reality. Not that it was ever an easy task.

How much of the conscious stream is ego? I am not sure exactly what you mean because you are using metaphors I am unfamiliar with i.e. “the monkey mind”. Learning to distinguish between what is an ego driven illumination and what is from your higher self is something everyone must learn. To learn to distinguish between the two one must learn to introspect into their own mind and learn how it functions. Our minds play games with us. Because we all want to be thought of as valued members of the human race we can trick ourselves into thinking we are something we are not. We must endeavor to search for what is right and true and conform ourselves to that and not re-interpret what is right and true so that we appear to be right and true, but are not. Determining what information that comes from your mind is right and true and what is hooey takes experience and of course the guidance of someone who has been down that road also helps. It is not beneficial to just listen to what someone else has taught you or written and accept it without question as right and true. Including anything and everything I have written. It would be following someone else’s truth. Now, yes all truth is One, and anyone who knows the truth recognizes someone else who knows the truth. My truth will not be different from your truth when we are both seeing the “real” truth. As distinguished from what our egos want the truth to be. However, merely repeating what someone else has taught is not the same as understanding. It would be similar to me describing how an orange tastes. You could study what I have said and written and repeat it word for word, but that is not the same thing as eating an orange and understanding for yourself what an orange tastes like. Words and instruction point the way for the individual to learn and experience truth for themselves.

Now in general, thoughts that are unifying and constructive come from your higher self. In Christianity these proper attitudes and ideas will result in what is called the "fruits of the spirit". Love (Greek “agape”: unconditional love), compassion, mercy, temperance, patience etc. Ideas and concepts that are from the ego are generally concepts that lead to selfishness, greed, possessiveness, and anger etc. Healthy concepts lead to inclusive attitudes unhealthy attributes lead to exclusive attitudes.

During meditation or contemplation you may or may not get actual information from your higher self. The way to decide if it is valuable or not is to test it, as you should test all information that you gain. Truth can withstand testing, falsehood cannot. The purpose of meditation is not to gain information from the higher self, however. It is to learn to focus your mind in a manner that produces the ability to perceive life clearly without obstruction from the ego, which colors all out perceptions. If you gain insight as well that is good, but that is not the ultimate purpose. Ultimately insight will be gained once you begin to perceive without obstruction.

The ego is expressed in our thoughts and actions. Our outward attitudes and behaviors reflect our inner maturity and understanding. It is possible to behave correctly and not have internal spiritual maturity, however. That is why in Christianity they say that you are saved by grace and not by works. Works (actions) can be a way to evaluate a person’s maturity, but it is not fail-safe. It is what is in one’s mind that determines their maturity. Anyone can fake appropriate behavior and maturity through actions. That is how we end up with religious cults. That is how actors can appear one way on screen and be completely different in person.

I would agree that most or all negative thoughts are a reflection of the lower self or ego. In Chinese Chi Kung they believe (and I agree with them) that our minds are made up of two parts: “the wisdom mind” and “the emotional mind”. When I was younger I called them “The big me” and “The little me” and Christians call them “the old self” and “the new self”. Higher principals and reason motivate the wisdom mind, lower principals and feelings motivate the emotional mind. The wisdom mind is to be cultivated and the emotional mind is to controlled.

Again, I am not sure this is what you wanted. Let me know if I have answered al your questions.

Sincerely,

Scott

[Nexus]

So far your answers have been fabulous and very insightful. Do you have some recommended readings that can help further my understandings of these processes.

Are you implying that through meditation and higher thinking one achieves enlightenment?

And that before enlightenment, say 'the day before' you already so close to being at the enlightened state of mind that there really is not much difference?

I ask the above because you said its a state of mind that grows out of you, and tomorrow I will not be significantly different then I am today, unless I have some sort of life changing experience (enlightenment?).

And what if you are suddenly enlightened 15 years down the road, and you look back on what you have said to me as drawing me from the direction as maybe the message you convey is based on a lot of subtleties which you did not go over when you wrote this message. Subtleties such as the pyschological conditioning you put yourself through to reach the point at which you are at right now (state of mind).

Thanks,

Nexus

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

[Scott R. Brown]

Nexus,

I will have to think for a few days concerning recommended reading. I have read extensively, but most of this I have figured out on my own through applying and experimenting with the knowledge I have gained through reading and my life’s experiences. You may not get the same results from of any books I recommend because you are a different person with different abilities, experiences and interests. I will try to come up with a list of the more significant books I have read. I am in the middle of a 400-mile move so it may be sometime next week. If I forget just send me an e-mail to remind me.

“Are you implying that through meditation and higher thinking one achieves enlightenment?”

Yes and no. If you recall my post regarding the Bhagavad Gita, there are a few other methods. However, you have rightly perceived the path that I have followed. Meditation is a bit more complicated than people think. Many people think that meditation brings enlightenment and that enlightenment cannot occur without it. This is not the case. It is possible to gain enlightenment without ever meditating. Since enlightenment is a state of mind, meditation can help. This is because meditation is mental exercise or rather mental training that gives you the ability to manipulate your mind more effectively. When you meditate you are training your mind to work in different ways, you are learning mental skills. Since enlightenment is basically the manner in which we view the world, a perspective, these mental skills allow us to manipulate our minds more effectively.

Because enlightenment is the way we perceive the world and how we perceive the world is a function of the mind I think of it as a mental frequency. When I was a child I had a small transistor radio. In those days when you wanted to listen to AM radio at night the stations would fade in and out. Often I would have to hold the radio and constantly readjust the frequency to keep the reception clear enough to hear. That is how I feel about enlightenment and I am not claiming enlightenment for myself. I still have a ways to go. But, the correct mental attitude is one that we all have to search our own minds for. I cannot say it is frequency 590 on the dial, you dial it in, and “poof” you have enlightenment. It is a searching for the proper frequency in your own mind. First you get a far away reception that allows you to discover what part of the dial that station is located. (Okay, now I know it is between 700 and 900 mhz.) Then through further growth and experimentation you get closer and closer to the correct frequency. As time goes on you fine tune more and more until one day the station comes in clearly and “Eureka, you’ve found it”. Once again this is my interpretation of my experiences along the Path of Knowledge. It would be experienced and described differently by those that pursue the Path of Devotion and the Path of Action, but these people generally do not have the verbal skills to describe it as clearly. Others who pursue the Path of Knowledge should have similar, but different descriptions, since we all interpret our experiences differently. However, these other people should recognize the similarity to their own experiences.

“And that before enlightenment, say 'the day before' you already so close to being at the enlightened state of mind that there really is not much difference?”

That is a good question. I have never really thought about it like that. Speaking from my own experiences, I think probably not exactly. I have had some pretty strong transcendent experiences and I believe I have a pretty clear idea what it will be like. If you think of spiritual growth or enlightenment in terms of a person walking along a path, the person can always see further down the path than where they are at the moment. Your present position on the path is where your strongest experiences are, but you can anticipate what will happen further along the path because you can see what the landscape looks like from where you are. For example: When on a real trail you may see a river in the way. It would be safe to assume you may have to get wet when crossing the river. Your actual experience once you get there may not be “exactly” what you anticipated, but it will be similar to your expectations. So I would have to say that it will still be a significant difference from your current state of mind, but it will most likely not be destabilizing to your personality because you will have anticipated much of the experience. One person described their enlightenment as, “Just the same as everyday life except about six inches off the ground. I recognize this description as similar to the brief moments of enlightenment I have experienced. Life is different, but the same.


And what if you are suddenly enlightened 15 years down the road, and you look back on what you have said to me as drawing me from the direction as maybe the message you convey is based on a lot of subtleties which you did not go over when you wrote this message. Subtleties such as the psychological conditioning you put yourself through to reach the point at which you are at right now (state of mind).

Once again a very good and insightful question. I am not ultimately responsible for your growth, you are. That is why in my last post I mentioned that whatever anyone, including me, says, each individual seeker should test it for themselves. This makes the knowledge theirs. They are not just repeating someone else’s knowledge that they do not really understand. Anything anyone says is only the finger “pointing” the way, it is not the way. Experiences can never be adequately described to others. ”The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao”. You must seek the experience for yourself. The most anyone else can do is point out the dangers or blessings we each have encountered along the way and give a vague description of what you can expect along the path. Because each person has their own personality traits and abilities, no two people will have identical experiences. There are only variations of similarity. It is the same as me giving you driving instructions. You know what to expect in general terms, but not in specific terms. When I say look for the green house on the hill, you know what to look for, but you do not know exactly what the house or the hill looks like until you see it for yourself. When you see it you will recognize it as the house I was talking about because of my general description, but now you know the specific details of the house. You can see them for yourself. You see that it has a red brick chimney and where it is located. You can see that it has a certain number and style of windows, etc. Again the experiences of each person will be slightly different. Remember I can describe to you how an orange tastes, but knowledge of how it tastes to me is not the same as having personal knowledge for yourself. Once you taste the orange you will not experience it in the exact same way as me, you may not even like it.

I hope this helps. I am always at your service should you have further questions. Please be patient with me if there is a slight lag in my responses from time to time because I am in the process of moving.

Sincerely,

Scott

[prana]

Scott,

First of all, I apologise if my comprehending skills may not be to scratch. But I am trying to perceive your idea of your practise...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I have had some pretty strong transcendent experiences and I believe I have a pretty clear idea what it will be like. If you think of spiritual growth or enlightenment in terms of a person walking along a path, the person can always see further down the path than where they are at the moment. Your present position on the path is where your strongest experiences are, but you can anticipate what will happen further along the path because you can see what the landscape looks like from where you are. For example: When on a real trail you may see a river in the way. It would be safe to assume you may have to get wet when crossing the river.
[/quote]

Is the river real, and how does one achieve the state whereby all the delusions of the mind can be perceived or at least, predicted ? I am not that familiar with the techniques of Zen (Chan) but I have passed through literature regarding Zen being the single minded thought of say "Who Am I?" only to find the end of the road, "I is nothing", meaning, realising the truth when one reaches the road.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You know what to expect in general terms, but not in specific terms. When I say look for the green house on the hill, you know what to look for, but you do not know exactly what the house or the hill looks like until you see it for yourself. When you see it you will recognize it as the house I was talking about because of my general description, but now you know the specific details of the house. You can see them for yourself. You see that it has a red brick chimney and where it is located. [/quote]

I can understand this one as I relate this closely to initiation practise to certain yogas. Including those of cultivating Chi. This also includes the realisation of dream state whereby one perceives that reality is truth until ones consciousness interupts and remains equanimous. Thereafter remaining in this state of calmness, one awakens from the reality dream state into the realisation of the non-reality of the dream state.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Since enlightenment is a state of mind, meditation can help. This is because meditation is mental exercise or rather mental training that gives you the ability to manipulate your mind more effectively. When you meditate you are training your mind to work in different ways, you are learning mental skills. Since enlightenment is basically the manner in which we view the world, a perspective, these mental skills allow us to manipulate our minds more effectively. [/quote]

Please elaborate on this... This is interesting for me, as Buddha taught thousands of techniques. It would certainly give me an insight into the culture of Zen.

For my own experiences of englightenment, where shall it begin. Lets begin as to where most of us spend a third of hour lives. In the dream state, one recognises the illusory body as reality and all experiences, whether terrifying or pleasent to be reality. One then reacts as they would have during the so called conscious mind. If one is bounded to react unpleasently to a certain experiences, then these experiences manifest as bad and frightening. This is the law of Kamma.

Enlightenment for me is as simple as attaining the understanding in the dream state, that is was a dream state by remaining aware of the dream state. Heheheh going in circles here. Sorry, my Comprehension is poor.

Such also, is the death of the dream state body, that ones recognises as an illusion and that there is no body to attach to, is the englightenment in the bardo of dream state.

So the same applies to the enligtenment of the soi called between birth and death. With the added density of ground element, the mind is not so far as "monkey" as the mind in the dream state whereby scenes appear to change and the body is violentlty flexbile. However, it is still the reality that the body is nothing but the binding of dust and water, and that underneath the body remains the paths of the subtler meridians of our live energy. This is why being human is the best life to attain enlightenment...

And ****her subtler than that the return of all reality, solidity and delusions into the creator clear light.

Also so far as our current conscious body as the gift of Buddhas, and deities to us that we have accumulated merits. We should take care of it but realise that we should also use it to the best of our ability to protect, as we protect our Buddhas and deities that has given us this extraordinary gift.

Really, what I am saying is, englightenment, Buddha nature is in every one of us. The attachment to our body is I and mine is the cause of this dispersion of energy that has accumulated in unwholesome places, it needs to be freed, to understand this I and mine belongs to the creation of emptiness, and that one being to another is no different. The middle path, the Buddha nature

This is very interesting, if I am hearing it correctly, the teachings of Zen is actually vastly different. I just always thought that Zen is the use of thought to discover the impermanence of the body and of the mind... and then once that has become an actual realisation and understanding, the rest of the way have been paved by the new found wisdom in the path.... that was the law of Dhamma....., but this of course is my own wrong doing, my own impurity Samsara...

Pardon my ignorance.

Recognise the vivid blue lights of Lord Vairochana.
Recognise the blinding white lights of Lord Aksobhya.
Recognise the brilliant yellow lights of Lord Ratnasambhava.
Recognise the fiery red lights of Lord Amithaba.
Recognise the pure green lights of Lord Amoghasiddhi.

[Nexus]

The names of the ancients, many and old, grow beneath our feet quite cold. No two buddhas the same, even buddhas of similar name.

You a buddha, not you, but this, only is you when buddha has bliss.

- Poor translation of eastern poetry...

Prana, I can tell you this much about your desire for complete awareness. As soon as you truly let go of the desire to be enlightened and simply continue your path of meditation and knowing thyself you will be taking your next big "leap" so to speak towards that path. When one forgets about the goals and no longer worries about their daily progress, their progress increases.

example: if you lifted weights, and measured your biceps every day, you would some days measure larger and smaller depending on blood circulation, the tearing of muscles, adhesion etc. If you measure once every 2 months, you see progress of a slightly greater measure but not much. If you workout for the sake of loving each day of it, and care not of your daily progress then you are healthier mentally and no longer concerned of the physical appearance.

If you want to be aware let go, if you want to let go be aware.

- Hope that helps, sorry if I confused you.

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

[Scott R. Brown]

Prana,

I will do the best I can to answer your questions. There will be some difficulty because we are getting deeper and deeper into the realm of confusing descriptions. I am having probably as much difficulty understanding what you are describing are your are having with my descriptions. It is been years since I have delved into the detailed descriptions of the type Buddhism you are presently concerned with.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______

“Is the river real, and how does one achieve the state whereby all the delusions of the mind can be perceived or at least, predicted ? I am not that familiar with the techniques of Zen (Chan) but I have passed through literature regarding Zen being the single minded thought of say "Who Am I?" only to find the end of the road, "I is nothing", meaning, realising the truth when one reaches the road.”

The “river” in my example is merely a simile for an experience. It was meant to illustrate that your vision of where you want to go always exceeds where you actually are. I was comparing the spiritual journey to an actual physical journey. My intention was to explain how it is possible to predict what some future spiritual experiences will be by comparing it to a physical experience. It is not real in the context that I believe you mean. I am not referring to the river of existence or reality that Buddhism uses to describe the aspirant’s attempt to reach the ****her shore.

Delusions of the mind are found through the experience and practice of introspection and by trail and error. If you are sincere about understanding truth you will continually question your understanding. The ability to reason is valuable, and an understanding of the scientific method of inquiry will help as well. This is because these are methods used to test the truth of your understanding. You temporarily assume a truth to be true. You live as if you accept it as a truth and evaluate the results this attitude has on your life. Does it lead to inclusive thoughts and understanding, does it lead to the “fruits of the spirit” I have previously mentioned or does it lead to exclusiveness and negative attitudes. I could say to you such and such is a delusion, but the knowledge does not become yours until you understand it for yourself. You understand it by experimenting with it in your life and seeing for yourself its benefits or detriments.

I cannot address how one “learns” to perceive the delusion of reality (maya). It is just a realization that occurs. One of those “Aha” experiences I have previously mentioned. For me it just happened. I realized the illusion when I was 15 years old. I was not searching for it or concerned with it. The realization was more or less thrust upon me and I was left on my own to figure out what it all meant and how to utilize the new perspective I had on life. I made no effort to discover it. It was a type of epiphany that came unsolicited. The best recommendation I can make is to look for it. By searching constantly you will find it. Jesus said something along the lines of, ”Ask and you shall be given, knock and the door shall be opened”. At any rate I do not think it is important to search out and know the delusion or illusion of life. If you endeavor to know and understand life you will come to the realization as part of the process of growth. Do not push the river, it will come in its own time.

There are a number of branches of Chan Buddhism. As in every other religion there are branches of branches of branches. I attempt to stay true to the original intention of Chan, which is the direct seeing into the truth of reality. How do I know what is the original intent? I look for the oldest published works, the ones closest to the source. The “Sutra of Hui-Neng” is the closest I have found. He was the 6th patriarch in direct line from Bodhidharma. I read about the lives, experiences and teachings of the individuals that history has considered the most enlightened practitioners of Chan. I compare the experiences and teachings of the Masters and look for the common threads of their teaching and experience. Then I temporarily assume these to be true until I have had the opportunity to test the information. Truth can withstand testing, falsehood cannot. Buddha did not originally intend his thoughts to become a religion. It was man that turned it into a religion. Just as man turned Christianity into a religion. Over time mankind will clutter anything with useless drivel that only confuses the issue. I believe in cutting out the drivel and getting down to the meat. You will eventually have to discard the drivel anyway.

“I can understand this one as I relate this closely to initiation practise to certain yogas. Including those of cultivating Chi. This also includes the realisation of dream state whereby one perceives that reality is truth until ones consciousness interupts and remains equanimous. Thereafter remaining in this state of calmness, one awakens from the reality dream state into the realisation of the non-reality of the dream state.”

What makes it difficult to perceive truth directly is our emotional attachment to our own view of what we think reality or truth is. We project onto life our own ideas and thus clutter our perception. This is also called muddying the water, or seeing through a glass (window) darkly. Reality and non-reality are actually the same thing, not different versions of the same thing, but the identical thing perceived differently. That is what was meant about the man who’s enlightenment was described as “Just the same as everyday life except about six inches off the ground.” To the enlightened, life is different, but the same as it was before.
I posted:

Since enlightenment is a state of mind, meditation can help. This is because meditation is mental exercise or rather mental training that gives you the ability to manipulate your mind more effectively. When you meditate you are training your mind to work in different ways, you are learning mental skills. Since enlightenment is basically the manner in which we view the world, a perspective, these mental skills allow us to manipulate our minds more effectively.
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You responded:

Please elaborate on this... This is interesting for me, as Buddha taught thousands of techniques. It would certainly give me an insight into the culture of Zen.

Actually, all we can say is that we are told that Buddha taught thousands of techniques. Some would argue differently depending on where you get your information. Remember that man muddies the water by making things more confusing than they have to be. Much of it is the fault of those of us who follow the Path of Knowledge”. Because we are so interested in all the details of how things work, we cannot believe that everyone else is not just as interested as we are. Some information is pure falsehood for the purpose of controlling our fellow man and other information is passed along by those who have no idea what they are talking about. Which is why one should test everything for themselves.

Think of the path of enlightenment as a funnel. At the outer reaches it appears that there are many means to the end, but as you progress towards the center the path becomes narrower and narrower. Your experiences become similar to others who follow the path, but have taken different trails. Many of the tools and concepts you used will be discarded, because you will not need them any longer.

Hinduism has long influenced Buddhism. Hinduism encourages those on the spiritual path to find a method that is accommodating to their personality and personal inclinations. There is nothing inherently wrong with this. All paths have tools to assist the sincere. Some tools will just have to eventually be discarded as the person progresses.

“For my own experiences of englightenment, where shall it begin. Lets begin as to where most of us spend a third of hour lives. In the dream state, one recognises the illusory body as reality and all experiences, whether terrifying or pleasent to be reality. One then reacts as they would have during the so called conscious mind. If one is bounded to react unpleasently to a certain experiences, then these experiences manifest as bad and frightening. This is the law of Kamma.

Enlightenment for me is as simple as attaining the understanding in the dream state, that is was a dream state by remaining aware of the dream state. Heheheh going in circles here. Sorry, my Comprehension is poor.”

Maintaining awareness and gaining information in the dream state is not the same thing as enlightenment. It is merely gaining a skill that gives you information that is not readily available to the general public. Some information may be beneficial and some may be detrimental depending on the source and your ability to understand and apply it. This information can assist you in attaining enlightenment, but is not enlightenment in itself. As I have said before, enlightenment is a state of mind, a way of perceiving reality, not knowledge. Enlightenment is gained through knowledge assimilated and applied correctly.


“Also so far as our current conscious body as the gift of Buddhas, and deities to us that we have accumulated merits. We should take care of it but realise that we should also use it to the best of our ability to protect, as we protect our Buddhas and deities that has given us this extraordinary gift……”
“This is very interesting, if I am hearing it correctly, the teachings of Zen is actually vastly different. I just always thought that Zen is the use of thought to discover the impermanence of the body and of the mind... and then once that has become an actual realisation and understanding, the rest of the way have been paved by the new found wisdom in the path.... that was the law of Dhamma....., but this of course is my own wrong doing, my own impurity Samsara...”

Chan does not believe that the accumulation of merits benefits anyone. Merits are a result of actions and it is not actions that lead to enlightenment, it is realization, which is a function of the mind. Correct actions grow out of a correct state of mind, not he other way around. Those who follow Chan are not impressed by the Buddha or any other deities. Because all is one and we are all Buddha by nature, it is similar to being impressed with ourselves.

We have covered a lot of ground I hope that I have understood your questions. I have answered them the best I could. If you have any other questions please try to restate them in as simple terms a possible.

Sincerely,

Scott

[prana]

Nexus,

Thanks for your words of insight.
I will meditate on this.

But just for now, until I reach a higher attainment, I shall still be using a thought to still my monkey mind, but hopefully it won't be long till I can reach the level of attainment, the ability to rest in emptiness you have pointed here.

Recognise the vivid blue lights of Lord Vairochana.
Recognise the blinding white lights of Lord Aksobhya.
Recognise the brilliant yellow lights of Lord Ratnasambhava.
Recognise the fiery red lights of Lord Amithaba.
Recognise the pure green lights of Lord Amoghasiddhi.

[prana]

Scott,

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> . I was not searching for it or concerned with it. The realization was more or less thrust upon me and I was left on my own to figure out what it all meant and how to utilize the new perspective I had on life. [/quote]

I think you have extra-ordinary kamma to have this benefit. Good for you !

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Chan does not believe that the accumulation of merits benefits anyone. Merits are a result of actions and it is not actions that lead to enlightenment, it is realization, which is a function of the mind. Correct actions grow out of a correct state of mind, not he other way around. Those who follow Chan are not impressed by the Buddha or any other deities. Because all is one and we are all Buddha by nature, it is similar to being impressed with ourselves. [/quote]

This is where Chan is very different to the teachings I have learnt. Although I remember a comic of Zen, of a senior monk taking a leak on a Buddha statue. Another monk came by and puffed " Why are you disrecpectedful to the Buddha ?". The Senior monk says "What Buddha ?" I thought this is very impressive, as the reality is that the status is but a staue made of rock and by humans... though on the other hand, this statue bears the embodiment of wisdom and compassion of the Buddhas, and its image has the power to remove bad kamma at the bardo of between death and birth...

I think I understand what you are saying, I shall meditate on it. I do come from a vastly different lineage of teachings. And hence, we shall meet later on in the path of enlightenment (as you said :) ) )ref. meeting up later in a more common path)

To Nexus and yourself, Scott....

I am glad there are many wise minds here, I have looked long and hard for a place to learn more and share. However, perhaps I am stubborn, I am not much on moving from one technique to another, so I may come across inflexible about the technique I use to meditate. But rest assured, I am always open minded to hear others's experiences...

Recognise the vivid blue lights of Lord Vairochana.
Recognise the blinding white lights of Lord Aksobhya.
Recognise the brilliant yellow lights of Lord Ratnasambhava.
Recognise the fiery red lights of Lord Amithaba.
Recognise the pure green lights of Lord Amoghasiddhi.