Simple Meditation help, anyone?

[DragonStudios]

The best description I ever heard regarding the difference between the Soto and Rinzai sects of Japanese Zen Buddhism is: "if a practioner of Soto Zen wanted an apple, he would sit under the apple tree until it dropped into his lap, whereas if a Rinzai student wanted an apple he would persistently, but gently, shake the tree until it fell.

Rinzai emphasizes koans for help in meditation. Common koans are "what is the sound of one hand clapping," or "what was your face before your parents were born?" These simple puzzles give you mind something to focus on while you sit in meditation. But here's the trick... the thinking mind can't answer these questions. Only the meditative or instinctual mind can, as the answers can not be expressed by words (even Bart Simpson couldn't "tell" us what the sound of one hand clapping is, he had to show us).

Korean Chogye Zen is pretty much derived from the Rinzai school.

Soto focuses more on the meditation practices I've described above, particularly Shiken Taza (sp?). I learned, study, and practice Soto Zen.

Without going outside, you may know the whole world.
Without looking through the window, you may see the ways of heaven.
The ****her you go, the less you know.
--Lao Tsu

[o]

Generally speaking, Rinzai sect focuses on koan work and Soto on zazen, as mentioned above. The Rinzai postulate that since the enlightenment experience is sudden in itself, the cultivation should be a quick process and thus they make use of koans. The Soto think that the ripening will happen naturally and that you shouldn't rush enlightenment. Thus, they sit doing shikan taza or other zazen.

Nowadays, the division is not that distinct. Some Soto dojos do koans and some Rinzai dojos do zazen practice. The two practices are not mutually exclusive though. A practitioner can do both koans and zazen (though not at the same time, obviously). Generally, zazen should precede koan work because with it one tremendously increases joriki (samadhi/concentration power) which is needed to attain a "stronger" or "fuller" enlightenment.

There are more divisions to Zen than just Rinzai and Soto though. These two were just the products of the Japanese (Lin Ji and Dogen, respectively). Originally Zen was the Dyana of India. Then it was the Chan of China. Then it was the Zen of Japan. These are all the same thing but were slightly different adaptations to the differing peoples with the unifying factor of the Bodhi mind (and passing down the Dharma). If you want a good breakdown of Zen you should refer to "The Complete Book of Zen" by Wong Kiew Kit.

Also, here's a web site which outlines the different schools of Zen: www.ciolek.com/WWWVLPages/ZenPages/ZenSchools.htm

[o]

www.ciolek.com/WWWVLPages/ZenPages/ZenSchools.html

The previous url I mentioned needs an "l" at the end to work. For some reason, whenever I post something, the last character is always cut off. I wonder why.

[dwid]

I can't remember the name, but it differs from the others in that practitioners play the flute as part of their meditation practice. From my understanding, this is probably the least widespread of all the zen schools.

_________________________________________
The way of the samurai is in desperateness. Ten men or more cannot kill such a man. Common sense will not accomplish great things. Simply become insane and desperate. - Hagakure

[brucelee2]

Thanks guys. Does anyone know the essential difference (in practice, not theory, belief, etc..) of the different schools of Buddhism? (Theraveda, Tibetan, ....) Do most of them have some version of Zazen?

thanks
gary

[DragonStudios]

If by zazen you mean meditation... then yes, most do have some form of meditation. However, this meditation can greatly differ from zazen (on the surface at least, all meditation has the same goals, and usually transmits the same experiences when practiced regularly and seriously). Historically, Buddhism tended to be very adaptable and inobtrusive, and whatever the innate culture practiced at the time was typically adapted to Buddhism. Therefore you can have one sect practicing chanting, another sitting meditation, another qigong, etc. all with ultimately the same goal, and all claiming to be Buddhist.

IMHO, Buddha's enlightenment came from meditation, so if there are Buddhist sects out there that don't practice some form of meditation, it would be like a Christian sect that didn't practice some form of prayer.

Without going outside, you may know the whole world.
Without looking through the window, you may see the ways of heaven.
The ****her you go, the less you know.
--Lao Tsu

[o]

Hui-Neng, the 6th patriarch of Chinese Chan Buddhism, never practiced meditation and yet was considered a Buddhist. (He was enlightened after hearing a verse from a wandering boy that was chanting a sutra from the 5th patriarch.)

[3BladesFighter]

thanks, you've improved my meditation tenfold, and if there is any way i can help you, just ask. and if you don't know what to ask for, i like to teach people of how to do stealth, chian kung, and sparring tips. thanks, brethren, and keep giving me info!

"Build from the past, live in the present, and ignore the future. What you do now determines what happens later" -Phoenix

[origenx]

How do you do stealth?

[Scott]

Thanks for the great answers everyone... You totally answered what I was looking for =) Now I have alot to think about and practice. Thanks everyone, especially you DragonStudios.

I know this is straying, but my first question was answered so well.. I'd like to know about stealth, too =P I've always thought this.. an important aspect of martial arts is self defense.. But no matter how incredible you are, there will always be fights you can't win.. I mean, even the BEST martial artist in the world in any style can't take on 9 or 10 people at once. So how do you get away? Wouldn't that be important?

-Scott

"You have to consider the possibility that god does not like you; he never wanted you. In all probability, he hates you. It is not until we have lost everything that we can do anything."

[3BladesFighter]

stealth is stealth, it's the way you're able to get around without anyone noticing you, or being able to be detected less often, or making less sound, that's stealth.

"Build from the past, live in the present, and ignore the future. What you do now determines what happens later" -Phoenix

[origenx]

shenchuan - ok, i know what stealth is, but what are special techniques to achieve it?

[Kung Lek]

Hi-

There are two prominent schools of Zen thought and practice.

The sudden school, and the "not so sudden" school hahaha.

One prescribes to the idea that enlightenment is achieved in an epiphany and is not always sustainable.(sudden)

the other holds to the idea, that enlightenment will take place through the chanting of the buddhas name over and over again.

Both look to "empty" the mind to allow it to "fill" with certainty.

The "sudden" is closest to the originating practice of Ch'an which in turn was born of "pure Land" Buddhism brought to the Shaolin temple.

So much has been done to write about zen and ch'an and to categorize and pigeonhole concepts that are inherent to the practice. This is detrimental to the value of this type of meditation. The whole idea is to uncluster and undo all the dependency on explanation of what is occuring when the mind "clicks" on a truth of the self.

peace

Kung Lek

[3BladesFighter]

okay to achieve stealth, you must breathe out less evenly, inhale 2 seconds, exhale 3 seconds. also, breathe must match the speed of movement, like 2 steps, inhale quickly for 2 quick seconds, 3 steps after, inhale quickly for 3 quick seconds.

and one very missed concept is to KEEP YOUR WEIGHT DOWN after jumping, don't keep it up, because that would be resisting, and resisting would only make things worse. when you keep your weight down, you land on the balls of your feet and imagine your weight going straight down.

training for stealth is to stand, then roll to the right, stand, roll to the left, etc. and find the best way to roll without making noise.

and finally, another training for stealth is to ask a friend to exit the room and enter in random seconds, and sense him coming, and then find a place to hide quickly, and blend in, and to do so, imagine yourself fitting in like a shadow.

"Build from the past, live in the present, and ignore the future. What you do now determines what happens later" -Phoenix

[HuangKaiVun]

Personally, I think that most Zen temples (at least the famous ones) have not realized their full potential.

Many truly devout practitioners go into Zen, never to emerge again.

That's what a Zen priest once meant by "It stinks of Zen".

In the "Ox-Herding Pictures", the final level of Zen is the RETURN TO THE NORMAL WORLD, but with full awareness of one's life.

Unfortunately, most folks cling to their training as if it means more than they do.