Iron Fist

[sanjuro_ronin]

I really hope that it isn't that bad.
It would suck that marvel first fray into a MA character would flop worse than a fat guy in a belly flopping contest.

Seems like a case of crappy writing and messed up casting...

[GeneChing]

From there, other folks on Twitter replied with jokes about other instances of white actors playing Asian characters, like this reference to how Iron Fist actor Finn Jones briefly quit Twitter (they always come back) after scathing criticisms.


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(Via Paramount Pictures, Screen Crush, ValerieComplex, helpmeskeletor, Maria_Giesela, Nice_White_Lady, DLohRidah, IWriteAllDay_, gleebix, and ZweiXross)

Whatev about Danny Rand being originally white - these Ghost in the Shell meme spoofs are pretty funny.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Just another example of SJW not having any clue about what they are actually "protesting".

Sure there is white wash in Hollywood, there has always been BUT not in the case of Iron Fist.

[GeneChing]

The real question here is the source material. The source material was whitewashing. So should filmmakers stay loyal to that or update it for modern times when whitewashing is a sin? Here's the reply from the show producers and cast.

MYLES ARONOWITZ/NETFLIX
CULTURE WARS
The ‘Iron Fist’ White Savior Controversy: Creator and Stars Respond to the Backlash
‘Iron Fist’ stars Finn Jones and Jessica Henwick, along with showrunner Scott Buck, address concerns over casting and cultural appropriation in Marvel’s latest Netflix show.

MELISSA LEON
03.15.17 1:21 AM ET

Marvel’s Iron Fist doesn’t premiere on Netflix until Friday, but the show’s racial politics have already sparked debate for years.
As far back as 2014, a vocal contingent of fans have called for the traditionally blond-haired, blue-eyed martial-arts superhero, created by comic book writer Roy Thomas and artist Gil Kane, to be realized onscreen by an Asian-American actor. The website Nerds of Color published a plea for Marvel to consider the change that year, and helped launch an online movement in the hashtag #AAIronFist.
The piece, by writer Keith Chow, laid out the case: By casting an Asian-American lead, Marvel and Netflix would avoid the uncomfortably dated tropes of the character’s 1970s origins. Orientalism, cultural appropriation, and the “white savior” fantasy (in which a displaced white foreigner comes to a new land, adapts to its ways, often surpasses the natives in skill, and becomes their leader or last hope/samurai/Mohican, etc.) would go poof.
The parts of Iron Fist’s backstory integral to his identity, meanwhile, could be preserved: his parents’ tragic deaths, his New York billionaire upbringing, his gift for martial arts, and his difficulty fitting in. Even his training in the mystical Asian city of K’un-Lun would be lent more depth, as writers like Comics Alliance’s Andrew Wheeler argued: “A white American Danny Rand has to appropriate Asian heritage; an Asian-American Danny Rand gets to reconnect with it.”
Still, Netflix and Marvel chose to stick to the character’s comic-book depiction, casting Game of Thrones actor Finn Jones for the part. Onscreen, little about comic book Danny has changed. He’s still orphaned in a plane crash and raised by the monks of K’un-Lun, where he defeats a dragon and becomes the latest in a long line of Iron Fists. He returns to New York 15 years after his supposed death and becomes a chi-harnessing, Buddhist-quote-dropping, kung fu-wielding superhero. With blue eyes.



Yet Jones, for his part, asserts quite passionately that he sympathizes with fans’ frustrations at Hollywood’s penchant for white saviors. While Iron Fist comes at an awkward time—so soon after the debacle of Matt Damon’s Great Wall and just before Scarlett Johansson’s manga-originated role in Ghost in the Shell—he insists this story is different.
“I am the first to stand up for more diversity in television shows, especially when it comes to Asian actors,” he says, sitting beside his Iron Fist co-star Jessica Henwick (who plays Japanese martial artist Colleen Wing) on a wintry afternoon in New York. “I get that and I stand up for it. But I think people will find that what we’re doing with the show addresses those issues intentionally. We actually talk about those issues and we try to address them, rather than just being the white savior and coming in and going, ‘Oh, Danny’s gonna take care of everything!’”
“Well, actually,” he continues, breaking into a chuckle, “he tries, but that’s one of his flaws. We don’t celebrate that. Danny may come in and be like, ‘I can fix this!’ But it’s not something the show celebrates.”
In the first six episodes released to critics, Danny does exude a kind of childish naivete. He’s earnest, idealistic, and often overly confident. He waltzes into complicated situations with what he believes are easy solutions, whether at high-stakes business meetings or in Colleen Wing’s dojo. He’s immature, a bit of a mansplainer, and severely lacking in self-awareness.
“Danny Rand can’t even save himself, let alone an entire race of people,” Jones says. “And I think that really is what runs through the storyline. So I understand the issues, I respect them, and I stand up for what people are shouting against. But I just wish that people would see the whole picture before commenting on the headline, you know?
“I understand it,” he reiterates. “We live in a world right now which is incredibly unequal. Incredibly unequal. That knee-jerk reaction is because of a much wider injustice politically, economically, and culturally. So I get where that comes from. I just think, in the world there’s a larger picture right now that people need to see before they just comment on the headlines.”



No explicit acknowledgment of cultural appropriation issues comes in those first six episodes (there’ll be 13 total this season). But both Jones and showrunner Scott Buck (Dexter, Six Feet Under) say a key change to the demographics of K’un Lun, the city where Danny trains and which is only accessible through a secret portal in the Himalayas, helps diffuse the situation.
“What you may not know about K’un-Lun yet is that in our version of the story, K’un-Lun isn’t predominantly an Asian culture,” Jones says. “K’un-Lun is a diverse place with people from all over the world—South America, Europe, Asians, and Caucasian people all reside in this place.”
“It’s a celestial city that exists in another dimension and because of that there’s nothing that we felt made it specifically Chinese or Tibetan,” says Buck, in a later phone conversation with The Daily Beast. “We certainly modeled it after Tibetan monasteries, but it felt like we just naturally wanted to open it up to make it a little more diverse just because it gives us a lot more options in writing about it, I believe.”
“The entry to the city is somewhere in Asia but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s an Asian city, wholly,” he concludes.
On the issue of casting, Buck says he wasn’t aware of fans’ calls for a nonwhite lead until after Jones was cast—despite early reports that Marvel and Netflix did meet with several Asian American actors, before ultimately deciding to keep Danny white.
“To me it was just about finding the best actor for that,” says Buck. “It wasn’t until after we cast Finn that I became aware that there had been, you know, some controversy over that.”
“I understood where it was coming from,” he says, “but we just weren’t thinking in that way, at least I certainly wasn’t. I was just concentrating on the story and who would be a great actor to play this character.”
Buck says he and his writers “certainly wanted to avoid any stereotypes” in their treatment of Danny and Colleen, but their No. 1 priority was always to write simply “the best story we possibly could about these two complicated characters.”
“For me at least, that was part of the reason I wanted to make Colleen such a strong character,” he says, “because here we do have an Asian lead who is a martial arts expert and is every bit the match for Danny Rand. Even without that added pressure, I would have done the same thing because it was a character I found really compelling and fascinating.”

continued next post

[GeneChing]

Jones goes a step further: “Danny needs Colleen I think more than Colleen needs Danny,” he says. “Danny is in complete pieces and he needs the strong women around him to kind of hold him up and help him get through this adjustment in his life, this transition of coming from boy to man and taking hold of his responsibility.”
His first point, at least, rings true. In the first six episodes, Colleen Wing is the show’s real street-level hero: she’s steel-tough, complicated, and invested in her community. While Danny breaks into luxury brownstones and strolls through Midtown high-rises trying to take back his family’s billions, Colleen runs a dojo that keeps at-risk youth off the street.
Like Danny, Colleen’s life is also split between two cultures, in her case Japanese and American. For Henwick—best known for her roles on Game of Thrones (she plays Nymeria, one of the Sand Sisters) and Star Wars: The Force Awakens (as rebel X-Wing pilot Jessika Pava)—this is something of a departure.
“I’ve always made a point to play roles that aren’t specified by their ethnicity,” she says. “With [Colleen], it was the first role in quite a while that was defined by her culture. She was raised in Japan and now she lives in New York, and those are two polar opposite cultures.”
Henwick has heard fans’ concerns about cultural appropriation in Iron Fist, she says. It’s an issue she broaches delicately.
“Look,” she begins, slowly. “I am Asian.” (Jones bolts up next to her in faux-shock at this, making her laugh: “Whaaaat?”)
“I am Asian and I am an actor,” she continues. “If anyone understands, it’s me. I have faced it in my career. I’ve been working eight years and I’ve experienced it firsthand, the disparity when it comes to Asian representation—even more than that, Asian misrepresentation.
“But I also have seen what Finn’s done in this role and I honestly, honestly think that he smashes it out the park.”
Jones promises that, as Iron Fist progresses, new characters from “all over the globe” join the action. “Like, we have a very diverse cast,” he says, to nodding agreement from Henwick: “I think we have the most diverse cast out of all the Netflix Marvel shows,” she says.
“I remember just working with [the actors], thinking, ‘**** me! This is great!’” Jones says. “Like, look at all these powerful female roles. I think this is essentially a feminist ****ing show.”
He then turns to Henwick, eyes wide and gesticulating. “I think it’s also really important that people can identify with roles like yours,” he tells her. “With female roles or Asian roles, so people can look at television and be inspired by what they see because they’re being represented in a very strong and not-stereotyped way.”
“I really think the show is gonna, hopefully, transcend all of the noise that is out there at the moment,” Jones says, a touch of Danny Rand-style earnestness in his voice. “Because that was the intention. The intention was never to create something that didn’t represent people, that didn’t represent cultures.”
Henwick nods again, this time adding an emphatic “Yeah.”
“The intention has always been good,” he says. “So I just hope people will understand that.”

Personally, I don't really care. I mean I do, I hear the cries of Asian actors in Hollywood, but I sided with the swaps for the Mandarin and the Ancient One because the actors (Kingsley and Swinton) that replaced the old racist characters were great and totally elevated what both films were doing. And I'm probably going to watch Ghost in the Shell because nekkid asskicking ScarJo ('nuf said, right? Maybe I'll try to see the Japanese dubbed version to be more PC....eh, that's probably too much hassle). The bottom line for me will be if the show is any good. The pre-press buzz is pretty bad, but so was the talk before the presidential election. We'll know tomorrow.

[Jimbo]

And I'm probably going to watch Ghost in the Shell because nekkid asskicking ScarJo ('nuf said, right?

Not to be a killjoy, Gene, but you do realize that Scarjo is most likely body doubled (or CGI'd?) in any nude scenes?

[GeneChing]

Not to be a killjoy, Gene, but you do realize that Scarjo is most likely body doubled (or CGI'd?) in any nude scenes?

spoiler.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't agree that the source material was whitewashing, I mean, how was it?
Daniel Rand was the son of Wendall Rand, a white orphan in Tibet:

Daniel Rand is the son of Wendell Rand, who had, as a youth, visited the mystic city of K'un-Lun, which materialized in the Himalayas once a decade; founded roughly a million years ago by extraterrestrials, K'un-Lun was co-ruled by the aliens' descendants and powerful beings called the Dragon Kings, who were themselves subject to the godlike sorcerer Master Khan. Rand had saved the life of K'un-Lun's ruler Lord Tuan, who adopted Rand as his heir, to the resentment of Tuan's son, Yu-Ti. During his time in K'un-Lun, Rand married a woman named Shakari and fathered a daughter, Miranda Rand-K'ai. At some point, Rand won ritual combat against Davos, son of K'un-Lun's greatest warrior, Lei Kung the Thunderer, which entitled him to claim the power of Shou-Lao the Undying, a man transformed into a mystic serpent over a thousand years ago by the Dragon King Chiantang; however, although great K'un-Lun warriors had periodically wielded Shou-Lao's power as the Iron Fist, Rand declined the power. Ten years after coming to K'un-Lun, Rand was showing Shakari the restored nexus when Yu-Ti's men attacked them. Shakari was slain, and the grief-stricken Rand returned to Earth. Within a year, he became a successful businessman and married Heather Duncan. In his absence, Lord Tuan died and became ruler of Feng-Tu, abode of K'un-Lun's departed spirits, leaving Yu-Ti to rule K'un-Lun, while Lei Kung, shamed by Davos' defeat, banished his son to Earth.
When Daniel Rand was nine, at roughly the time K'un-Lun was scheduled to materialize, his father decided to bring him and Heather to K'un-Lun. Accompanied by Rand's business partner Harold Meachum, they traveled to the Himalayas, but Wendell fell from a mountain ledge; clutching the edge, he called to Meachum for help, but Meachum, hoping to control Rand's business shares, caused Wendell to plunge to his death. Shortly afterward, Heather sacrificed her life to protect Daniel from a wolf pack, and her spirit ascended to Feng-Tu. The denizens of K'un-Lun found Daniel and took him in, while a frostbite-crippled Meachum learned of Daniel's survival and spent the next decade preparing elaborate defenses against future attack.



More on Marvel.com: http://marvel.com/universe/Iron_Fist...#ixzz4bVx3yWyv

Where is there whitewashing in this?

[sanjuro_ronin]

And that whole "white saviour" thing is just simply ridiculous !
IF may be many things but he is most certainly NOT a saviour.
Seems people are actively LOOKING for things to complain about and when they are not there, they make them up.

I never had much faith in this for other reasons BUT I didn't really think that the issue would actually be that the character was actually the same is the source material !

I mean, if we really want to address diversity then:

Marvel missed a great chance at showing diversity.
They should have made Luke Cage white, or perhaps Asian ( and by Asian I don't just mean Chinese obviously, he could have been Indian for example).
They should have made Daredevil Filipino or perhaps Turkish and Janet Jones should have been at the very least Native something or other. So disappointing...why Marvel? WHY ?!?!?!?!?

[Zenshiite]

I'm enjoying the show, so far. My only real complaint is Finn Jones..... he needs more training. Like, seriously needs to spend a ton of time between seasons falling in love with martial arts to look more competant akin to what Keanu Reeves did on The Matrix. His anterior pelvic tilt really bothers me while he's going through his qigong routine...

I have a hard time with the whole argument that Iron Fist is whitewashing(not sure how that works in this case, since Danny Rand has never been Asian) or cultural appropriation. My understanding of cultural appropriation has been that it is A) using another culture's iconography as decor(a huge example of that would be how frequently I go into a home in the course of my job and see a Buddha statue sitting atop a toilet tank lid or elsewhere in a bathroom) or taking some element of a culture and erasing it's origin or significance or B) taking elements of someone's culture and using them disrespectfully(the classic example of the "sexy American Indian girl") or as mockery. Is adopting a different religion and training in martial arts "appropriation?" Because that sort of puts the last 17-18 years of my life into a problematic category having converted to Islam and trained a few different martial arts....

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ok, so I have watched 3 episodes so far.
The 3rd was by far the weakest in terms of MA skill for ALL involved.

Now, I knew the MA was going to be sub-par but the first couple were OK.

It is obvious that Jones and the female lead ( sorry I forget her name) should have had far more training ( not sure why they rushed this series).
The writing is OK and at times very chessy.

Pretty much everything I though was going to be an issue, IS an issue with this series.

That said, and maybe because my expectations were so low, I don't mind the series at all and kind of like it.

I knew that the IronFist character was going to have issues, especially since I realized they were not going the "immortal IF" route in terms of power and skill ( they may go there yet, not sure).

Look, IF is one of the most powerful fighters in all of marvel, he can quite literally, demolish pretty much anything and can heal pretty much everything short of a mortal injury and even project his chi.
Even in the comics they made him weak ( lets not forget that Steel serpent, who is LESS powerful than IF, matched up with Spider-man) and the weak link with Powerman, even though IF is actually MORE powerful than Luke Cage.

If Marvel really wants the Defenders to work they HAVE to fix IF.

[Jimbo]

Ok, so I have watched 3 episodes so far.
The 3rd was by far the weakest in terms of MA skill for ALL involved.

Now, I knew the MA was going to be sub-par but the first couple were OK.

It is obvious that Jones and the female lead ( sorry I forget her name) should have had far more training ( not sure why they rushed this series).
The writing is OK and at times very chessy.

Pretty much everything I though was going to be an issue, IS an issue with this series.

That said, and maybe because my expectations were so low, I don't mind the series at all and kind of like it.

I knew that the IronFist character was going to have issues, especially since I realized they were not going the "immortal IF" route in terms of power and skill ( they may go there yet, not sure).

Look, IF is one of the most powerful fighters in all of marvel, he can quite literally, demolish pretty much anything and can heal pretty much everything short of a mortal injury and even project his chi.
Even in the comics they made him weak ( lets not forget that Steel serpent, who is LESS powerful than IF, matched up with Spider-man) and the weak link with Powerman, even though IF is actually MORE powerful than Luke Cage.

If Marvel really wants the Defenders to work they HAVE to fix IF.

If I remember right, in the comic when Iron Fist first met Luke Cage and fought him, IF ended up losing the fight by being overpowered and choked(?). And this was AFTER blasting Luke Cage with his big chi punch. Even back in the '70s, and IF not being one of my favorite characters, I thought it was an odd way to end their fight. Even though Luke Cage was one of my favorite Marvel characters (until he was teamed with IF).

*Edit to add:
In modern times, it's imperative that actors doing MA scenes be thoroughly trained for it. Because the days of a Chuck Norris, Cynthia Rothrock, Joe Lewis, Don Wilson, etc., are over. That is, being some kind of champion in MA with very limited acting ability is no longer a path to breaking into the movies. Now, it's established actors who are given some training to look like MAists, especially since The Matrix. And it needs to be done right. Otherwise, their MA performances are no better than Chuck Norris' acting (especially his early acting). Done right, a good actor with some athletic ability can be made to look as good or better onscreen than many actual fighters or MAists, *with the right choreography*.

The only American movies still being made starring MAists (or MA fighters) specifically are the straight-to-DVD, $5 bin at Wal-Mart movies starring current or former MMA fighters that probably few people even watch (I know I don't).

[sanjuro_ronin]

Jimbo,
The original IF was pretty weak as he was written, which didn't make much sense considering the source of his power.
The Immortal IF story changed that, but even then, at times, he was weaker than he should be.
Things OTHER IF have done ( or others with the power of the IF like Steel Serpent):
Use chi to substitute a lost limb.
Mind control.
Heal extensive wounds.
Defeat super powered beings.
Project their chi with the same effect as Armour piercing explosive rounds.
To name only a few.

Yes, I agree that I prefer to see a movie with a good actor with some fight skills ( Matt Damon, Liam Neeson, Keanu for example), then great fighters with crappy acting.
That said they need great choreography AND decent athletic ability to "sell" the performance.
Jones doesn't seem to have that right now, BUT it wasn't as noticeable in the first 2 episodes and was VERY noticeable in the 3rd.

[Jimbo]

I'll probably have to check out Immortal IF at some point. Back in the '70s, I bought IF mainly because I was a completist and used to collect the entire Marvel Universe.

I wish chi development really were capable of developing such powers as you listed. I'd be on board (within reason).

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'll probably have to check out Immortal IF at some point. Back in the '70s, I bought IF mainly because I was a completist and used to collect the entire Marvel Universe.

I wish chi development really were capable of developing such powers as you listed. I'd be on board (within reason).

You and me both dude.