Skill or Strength ??

[Yum Cha]

If you look at the vids of Gino, you'll see he's a bigger boy than you MK. As a bigger boy myself, I can tell you from my own personal experience, weight training is not what works for me. It makes me better on the beach, but worse on the mats.

Power has never been my problem, speed, targeting, footwork and strategy are what I try to improve.

Even when I do alternating days, weight days vs forms, aerobic, isometric, isokenetic (thanks Ronin), I still feel sluggish from the weights.

The only weight training I like is 100-200 reps with 5-10 lbs done quickly.

However, I'm always open to suggestions from some of you PTs and coaches out there...

[SevenStar]

I am a fairly big guy too, and weights work wonders for me. I can't imagine training without that component.

[Yum Cha]

hi 7,

You're mainly MMA right? Don't you also train some traditional?

I'm mainly traditional, some grappling. I really appreciate the strength when grappling, but I feel sluggish after weights doing speed work.

Any advice?

[IronWeasel]

I don't think you know what you're talking about. And believe it or not I don't mean that in a judgmental way.

Lolz

Awesome! This should be a sig.

[SevenStar]

what lifts are you doing? how soon after you lift are you doing your speed training?

[Yum Cha]

what lifts are you doing? how soon after you lift are you doing your speed training?

My weitht routine is mostly arm and chest oriented, as I use other things for core and legs.

Standing:
1. curls,
2. reverse curls? (elbows next to ears, weights behind the head extended to above the head),
3. weights at side, lift together in front of chest while crunching, than lift together behind back while crunching,
4. and the old favorite, arms straight out to the side, held to the count of 10, dropped, raised, held to the count of 10...
5. Speed exercises with weights: punching drills, alternate curls.

Laying down on bench:
1. flys (arms out sideways, brought together using straight arms over body), and
2. arms extended straight back, together, than with straight arms, brought 180 degrees to above groin, than back.

I find if I use heavy weights, over 30lb dumbells and fewer reps, I feel sluggish for the next day doing forms or combinations. If I use 10-15lb dumbells, and get reps over 100, I still get a great burn, but don't feel the mollasses in my muscles for two days. With the lighter weights, I try to do it quickly, but things like flys can only be done so fast, or they just don't work...

Also, while on my back on the bench, I do leg lifts and spreads, curl ups, crunches.

Between forms I often do press ups as well, I really like using blocks.

And I do some other traditional exercises for core and flexability....yada yada yada...

My brother is a body builder for many years, he set me up with some of these exercises, and I can borrow his iron as needed.

For the record, I can around 300lbs 3 times (and suffer for 3 days), but I don't know how much I can deadlift, press, snatch, etc...

I like a bit of skipping rope too...

My measure of speed by how quickly and comfortably I can go through my forms routine, which takes about an hour, during which I keep my heartrate up between 65 and 90% of my recommended rate. Obviously, I sometimes get it up to the 100%+, but only for very short peaks.

Shhhhh!, my workout is a ancient secret Chinese traditional technique, just between you and me, right?

[pilgrimsunwukun]

It's funny when this topic comes up since there are all sorts of opinions and the reality is different for different people. I think one part of the answer lies with the Sifu. If he's huge, strong, fast the techniques he teaches will often reflect those abilities. But guess what , he'll get old. He won't be strong, fast, and he'll probably get bigger, love-handles wise.

I also know there are small guys who are extremely strong.

When one starts out training , the arrogance of youth-or maybe just the reality is that there's lots of jing, yang whatever- helps one rely of strength. Great, especially if you have a superior attitude.

Bruce Lee was supposed to be very strong but he didn't do verywell playing chisao with Yip Man, who was older, weaker, slower.

For long term progress working skill will take you ****her. Way back when I remember someone once saying people proposed a fight between Jim Brown and Cassius Clay. Those two guys were goofing around and suddenly Jim Brown felt wind blowing past his ear then a tap tap by his cheeks. Cassius Clay the fighter had fired of a combo and the football player, who probably was probably stronger(squat, bench, weight lifting wise) barely could react to cover his face. The fight never happened.

Even if that's a crock, superior skill and superior psoition seem to be a better advantage then superior strength.

[sanjuro_ronin]

My weitht routine is mostly arm and chest oriented, as I use other things for core and legs.

Standing:
1. curls,
2. reverse curls? (elbows next to ears, weights behind the head extended to above the head),
3. weights at side, lift together in front of chest while crunching, than lift together behind back while crunching,
4. and the old favorite, arms straight out to the side, held to the count of 10, dropped, raised, held to the count of 10...
5. Speed exercises with weights: punching drills, alternate curls.

Laying down on bench:
1. flys (arms out sideways, brought together using straight arms over body), and
2. arms extended straight back, together, than with straight arms, brought 180 degrees to above groin, than back.

I find if I use heavy weights, over 30lb dumbells and fewer reps, I feel sluggish for the next day doing forms or combinations. If I use 10-15lb dumbells, and get reps over 100, I still get a great burn, but don't feel the mollasses in my muscles for two days. With the lighter weights, I try to do it quickly, but things like flys can only be done so fast, or they just don't work...

Also, while on my back on the bench, I do leg lifts and spreads, curl ups, crunches.

Between forms I often do press ups as well, I really like using blocks.

And I do some other traditional exercises for core and flexability....yada yada yada...

My brother is a body builder for many years, he set me up with some of these exercises, and I can borrow his iron as needed.

For the record, I can around 300lbs 3 times (and suffer for 3 days), but I don't know how much I can deadlift, press, snatch, etc...

I like a bit of skipping rope too...

My measure of speed by how quickly and comfortably I can go through my forms routine, which takes about an hour, during which I keep my heartrate up between 65 and 90% of my recommended rate. Obviously, I sometimes get it up to the 100%+, but only for very short peaks.

Shhhhh!, my workout is a ancient secret Chinese traditional technique, just between you and me, right?

I have never been a fan of doing MA AND Strength Training the same day, something always "suffers", but some guys to fine with it.
I woudl suggest you move away from "body building" and isolation like moves and focus on Strength exercises and compound moves.
I have always been a advocate of "real life" exercises, exercises that work the muscles we need everyday, not just for MA -
Deadlifts
Squats
Dips
Overhead presses.
And even curls, just because we curl almost everything.

[bodhitree]

My weitht routine is mostly arm and chest oriented, as I use other things for core and legs.

Standing:
1. curls,
2. reverse curls? (elbows next to ears, weights behind the head extended to above the head),
3. weights at side, lift together in front of chest while crunching, than lift together behind back while crunching,
4. and the old favorite, arms straight out to the side, held to the count of 10, dropped, raised, held to the count of 10...
5. Speed exercises with weights: punching drills, alternate curls.

Laying down on bench:
1. flys (arms out sideways, brought together using straight arms over body), and
2. arms extended straight back, together, than with straight arms, brought 180 degrees to above groin, than back.

I find if I use heavy weights, over 30lb dumbells and fewer reps, I feel sluggish for the next day doing forms or combinations. If I use 10-15lb dumbells, and get reps over 100, I still get a great burn, but don't feel the mollasses in my muscles for two days. With the lighter weights, I try to do it quickly, but things like flys can only be done so fast, or they just don't work...

Also, while on my back on the bench, I do leg lifts and spreads, curl ups, crunches.

Between forms I often do press ups as well, I really like using blocks.

And I do some other traditional exercises for core and flexability....yada yada yada...

My brother is a body builder for many years, he set me up with some of these exercises, and I can borrow his iron as needed.

For the record, I can around 300lbs 3 times (and suffer for 3 days), but I don't know how much I can deadlift, press, snatch, etc...

I like a bit of skipping rope too...

My measure of speed by how quickly and comfortably I can go through my forms routine, which takes about an hour, during which I keep my heartrate up between 65 and 90% of my recommended rate. Obviously, I sometimes get it up to the 100%+, but only for very short peaks.

Shhhhh!, my workout is a ancient secret Chinese traditional technique, just between you and me, right?

Not to offend, but

This doesn't even remotely resemble a strength training program. I would suggest you go to the training forum and read the "strength training links" sticky thread, and read through. Some of the older links are dead, but there are many good ones. Lifting weights is not necessarily equal to strength training. Strength training comes about with the right intensity (amount of weight/ force generated) and COMPOUND body movements. Basically, lifts that 'target' a muscle are not very good for strength. Have you ever heard of the big three? The deadlift, the squat, and the bench? Any serious strength program should incorporate those lifts. There are many other lifts that are good for building strength, the over head press, lunges, olympic lifts, etc..


Why don't people even know what strength training is, and I don't just mean you yum cha

[bodhitree]

oh, if you're doing strength/conditioning and skill training in the same day, the skill training should probably come first. That would at least be ideal.

[Black Jack II]

strength hands down.

[SevenStar]

For long term progress working skill will take you ****her. Way back when I remember someone once saying people proposed a fight between Jim Brown and Cassius Clay. Those two guys were goofing around and suddenly Jim Brown felt wind blowing past his ear then a tap tap by his cheeks. Cassius Clay the fighter had fired of a combo and the football player, who probably was probably stronger(squat, bench, weight lifting wise) barely could react to cover his face. The fight never happened.

Even if that's a crock, superior skill and superior psoition seem to be a better advantage then superior strength.

not really. in the case you mentioned, brown had no fighting skill. ali was a pro fighter. BIG bifference. Now, take a weaker pro fighter against a stronger amateur fighter and you would have had a different result. As skill levels become more equal, strength becomes more important.

Heck, anyone who wants to see strength and it's advantages can watch a few of bob sapp's fights, who at 6'5 and a pretty solid 350 pummeled his way to an 8-2-1 record...

[SevenStar]

My weitht routine is mostly arm and chest oriented, as I use other things for core and legs.

Standing:
1. curls,
2. reverse curls? (elbows next to ears, weights behind the head extended to above the head),
3. weights at side, lift together in front of chest while crunching, than lift together behind back while crunching,
4. and the old favorite, arms straight out to the side, held to the count of 10, dropped, raised, held to the count of 10...
5. Speed exercises with weights: punching drills, alternate curls.

Laying down on bench:
1. flys (arms out sideways, brought together using straight arms over body), and
2. arms extended straight back, together, than with straight arms, brought 180 degrees to above groin, than back.

I find if I use heavy weights, over 30lb dumbells and fewer reps, I feel sluggish for the next day doing forms or combinations. If I use 10-15lb dumbells, and get reps over 100, I still get a great burn, but don't feel the mollasses in my muscles for two days. With the lighter weights, I try to do it quickly, but things like flys can only be done so fast, or they just don't work...

Also, while on my back on the bench, I do leg lifts and spreads, curl ups, crunches.

Between forms I often do press ups as well, I really like using blocks.

And I do some other traditional exercises for core and flexability....yada yada yada...

My brother is a body builder for many years, he set me up with some of these exercises, and I can borrow his iron as needed.

For the record, I can around 300lbs 3 times (and suffer for 3 days), but I don't know how much I can deadlift, press, snatch, etc...

I like a bit of skipping rope too...

My measure of speed by how quickly and comfortably I can go through my forms routine, which takes about an hour, during which I keep my heartrate up between 65 and 90% of my recommended rate. Obviously, I sometimes get it up to the 100%+, but only for very short peaks.

Shhhhh!, my workout is a ancient secret Chinese traditional technique, just between you and me, right?

sanjuro hit it - that's more of a bodybuilding style of weight training. That is exactly what we tell people not to do (even though I am currently doing it myself) but I also ALWAYS have the big three in any program that I do (bench, squats and deads). The key to what people call "functional strength" is compound movement. The body works as one unit when playing sports, fighting, etc. so, training the muscles in isolation isn't really conducive to training for said activities. O-lifts, powerlifting, strong man training, etc. are more along the lines of what a martial artist would benefit most from, not a bodybuilding regimen.

[golden arhat]

Dude !!
Seriously, that's just wrong.
You might actually stand a better chance VS Kimbo, you wouldn't be able to even hit marquez.

i'd fight either



u didnt say i had to win

simply to fight

[SouthernTiger]

sanjuro hit it - that's more of a bodybuilding style of weight training. That is exactly what we tell people not to do (even though I am currently doing it myself) but I also ALWAYS have the big three in any program that I do (bench, squats and deads). The key to what people call "functional strength" is compound movement. The body works as one unit when playing sports, fighting, etc. so, training the muscles in isolation isn't really conducive to training for said activities. O-lifts, powerlifting, strong man training, etc. are more along the lines of what a martial artist would benefit most from, not a bodybuilding regimen.

This is exactly the kind of miscommunication that can happen when people say that "strength" is soo important. One person lifts as a "bodybuilder" while another as a "strongman". Also, there are different kinds of strength. Should we include training for power, speed, and muscular endurance also? This is why weight training can be a tricky topic. I own a gym and I have to deal with this on a daily basis. Many people train MMA and come to the gym to train but waste their time. Even their "coaches" are in the dark on how to properly use strength training. It is soo frustrating...

But you are right that if one trains their strength properly, the carryover into combat is paramount. Also, I believe the bench press to be of minimal value to one training in the combat arts. Chest training is important but bench press has little carryover.

However, I still contend that skill training is more significant than strength training.

-Blake