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Thread: Skill or Strength ??

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKiller View Post
    And I wonder why Royce was recently caught juicing...? Do steroids make your triangle choke more technical?
    LOL !!

    Is it any wonder that the best fighter in the Gracie Clan was one of their best built - Rickson.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernTiger View Post
    Hmm...Mr. Punch is it possible for you to state your opinion without being condescending? It seems not... *rolleyes*

    I think the whole purpose of ginosifu asking this question is merely a theoretical one. That is to say, which is more important in the big picture: skill or strength? Of course, this is purely hypothetical because no sane person would train one exclusively (unless you are Mr. Punch, who only needs to train strength because he seems to have perfected technique already...)

    To this, I think it would be hard for anyone to call themselves Martial Artists and say that strength takes presedence (sp?) over skill. If so, why even train martial arts? Trully, would it not just be better to be a powerlifter or strongman? If we had to choose one: as a martial artist, it should be skill; as a normal person, it should be strength.

    Surely we could agree that training martial arts is about training the science of combat and how to use an opponent's force against himself. Otherwise, it is always the bigger, stronger, and faster man that wins.

    Also, if we do want to talk about "weight training" and any inhibitory effects on martial arts, we would need to define lifts and methods more thoroughly to avoid blanket statements like, "weight training is bad."

    For example, I am of the opinion that bench press is worthless for fighting arts. Deadlifts, squats, snatches, and other "without support" total body lifts are quite useful and I bleieve they should be in every martial artists training regimen.

    Now, I will await Mr. Punch's cunningly condescending and pompous retort...

    -Blake
    Mr. Punch responded as he did because genosifu made false statements about strength training. If the guy hadn't spouted claims based on common myths without doing any research, then he has to be ready to accept the inevitable flames. Strength training WILL NOT hinder progress in martial arts, at all (injuries that occur in any physical activity excluded). Strength training can only complement martial arts!


    Can someone be skilled without strength, Yes. Would they be better if they were stronger, God yes.


    As to your point about Royce in the early UFC's, he had submissions, which noone else knew at the time. Look at Royce vs. the stronger Hughes, Hughes who actually knows submissions. See the result.
    Bless you

  3. #48
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    Don't know where this BS about Strength training comes from, most TMA advocate it, look at Hung ga, look at the Okinwan Karate systems.
    Stronger bodies make for better tools.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  4. #49
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    Scenario: Your wife is about to be raped and you have to fight one guy to prevent it.

    Would you rather fight Juan Manuel Márquez, the current WBC Super Featherweight (126-lbs) champion, or Kimbo Slice (250-lbs)?

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKiller View Post
    Scenario: Your wife is about to be raped and you have to fight one guy to prevent it.

    Would you rather fight Juan Manuel Márquez, the current WBC Super Featherweight (126-lbs) champion, or Kimbo Slice (250-lbs)?
    Dude !!
    Seriously, that's just wrong.
    You might actually stand a better chance VS Kimbo, you wouldn't be able to even hit marquez.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  6. #51
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    I think everyone is on the same page that strength is needed as well as skill.

    Even if someone wins due to strength alone, were they completely un skilled? Likely they had at least some skill to back their strength with.

    Strength alone can go either way, a bumbling huge bafoon who can throw sloppy haymakers and bear hug, or a serious threat because the guy also happens to have a good understanding of mechanics.

    Skill works the same way, though with less chances of coming out on top, just because your skilled.

    Strength, without question, has a more inherant ability to see you through to the end, because its a passively used element in a fight. You just use how ever much you have, and you just have how much you have. Skill however, is still largely actively employed in a bout, and can leave you open for serious error if you slip up.

    as far as i know its difficult to fail at being strong if you are strong.
    For whoso comes amongst many shall one day find that no one man is by so far the mightiest of all.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKiller View Post
    Scenario: Your wife is about to be raped and you have to fight one guy to prevent it.

    Would you rather fight Juan Manuel Márquez, the current WBC Super Featherweight (126-lbs) champion, or Kimbo Slice (250-lbs)?
    either, ill shoot him dead.

    but i guess that would also depend on the person you are asking. some guys might rather fight kimbo
    For whoso comes amongst many shall one day find that no one man is by so far the mightiest of all.

  8. #53
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    Luckly for all of us, the two are NOT mutual exclusive and we can have both and focus on both.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  9. #54
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    Yep, you got it

    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Luckly for all of us, the two are NOT mutual exclusive and we can have both and focus on both.
    Thank you sanjuro_ronin for putting it so simply and eloquently!

    So, yes, this is really just a theoretical discussion with no absolute "right" answer. The point being: train for both skill and strength. Neither should be neglected.

    But, just to weigh in: I would double-tap the aggressor in the chest. But, if I didnt have my Colt .45 nearby I would rather fight the bigger guy (assuming he has less skill).

    -Blake
    "Gungfu is not just about fighting."

    "Repitition is the mother of skill."

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by bodhitree View Post
    Mr. Punch responded as he did because ginosifu made false statements about strength training. If the guy hadn't spouted claims based on common myths without doing any research, then he has to be ready to accept the inevitable flames. Strength training WILL NOT hinder progress in martial arts, at all (injuries that occur in any physical activity excluded). Strength training can only complement martial arts!
    Sorry Bohditree, but my statement were of my opinion of students coming to me after weight lifting and could not do kung fu moves the correct way because they were so bulky. It is my opinion that Martial Artists do not need that kind of weight lifting. I did not say that Martial Artists do not need Strength Training.

    Everyone has there opnion about how they should train and what is best. I just wanted to see where everybody sided here.

    I am 44, I still strength train in my own way. I still train skill, Cardio, San Shou and MMA. If you love to weight lift ... more power to ya.

    Ginosifu

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernTiger View Post
    Hmm...Mr. Punch is it possible for you to state your opinion without being condescending? It seems not... *rolleyes*
    Nah. But thanks for taking an interest.

    Read my first post. Factual. To the point. Nothing condescending. Ignored by Gino, who then went on with more anecdotal claims.

    I think the whole purpose of ginosifu asking this question is merely a theoretical one.
    Sure it was hypothetical: as was his lecture about how weights were bad. If he'd read up on it maybe he wouldn't have needed to frame his personal ax to grind in a hypothetical way.

    Of course, this is purely hypothetical because no sane person would train one exclusively (unless you are Mr. Punch, who only needs to train strength because he seems to have perfected technique already...)
    How very unimaginative a straw man. Read what I wrote. I don't believe forms to be useful past beginner stage (where does that say I've perfected anything?). I don't believe solo training to be useful other than bagwork (I can't use my bag). I have no access to training partners because I often work 12 hours a day. Therefore the only things available for me are BW exercises and my DBs. That does not affect my defence of weight-training in general. Of course I would rather be training kung fu with people.

    Also, if we do want to talk about "weight training" and any inhibitory effects on martial arts, we would need to define lifts and methods more thoroughly to avoid blanket statements like, "weight training is bad."
    Gino weighed in with some blanket stuff. I was specifying.

    For example, I am of the opinion that bench press is worthless for fighting arts. Deadlifts, squats, snatches, and other "without support" total body lifts are quite useful and I bleieve they should be in every martial artists training regimen.
    Yep. While I don't think BP is totally useless (esp not for groundwork) there are better ways I spend my time.

    Please note, I was advocating an integrated training programme, not one thing over another.

    Now, I will await Mr. Punch's cunningly condescending and pompous retort...
    Hope I haven't disappointed.
    its safe to say that I train some martial arts. Im not that good really, but most people really suck, so I feel ok about that - Sunfist

    Sometime blog on training esp in Japan

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by ginosifu View Post
    Strength:
    Push Ups, Dynamic Tension sets, Weight Lifting, Strength Forms, Resistance Training etc etc.
    ...
    Ginosifu
    Quote Originally Posted by ginosifu View Post
    Strength Training:

    I meant Martial Arts strength programs. Power Lifting or any weight lifting that requires downtime or resting intervals is not the type of strength training I was talking about.

    Ginosifu
    Quote Originally Posted by ginosifu View Post
    Strength training such as power lifting and heavy body building increase strength! However they also build in such a way that they do not move well for martia arts moves...
    Ginosifu
    I don't think you know what you're talking about. And believe it or not I don't mean that in a judgmental way.
    You start by mentioning weights in your strength training list (so 'weights' are potentially good?). Then you say weights that require resting intervals (so these. ie. all good weights for strength programmes - not even talking about BW - are bad?). Then you say power lifting (is bad...).

    Pick an argument, why don't you?

    Finally you are saying that bulking up is bad, which is kind of what we've been saying except without the necessary qualification that if they stretch out it isn't necessary so.
    its safe to say that I train some martial arts. Im not that good really, but most people really suck, so I feel ok about that - Sunfist

    Sometime blog on training esp in Japan

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernTiger View Post
    Thank you sanjuro_ronin for putting it so simply and eloquently!
    And I know I didn't contradict that anywhere. Or perhaps you could point it out.

    I still don't really know how you can rag on me for being condescending to a man who call himself sifu on a forum and includes as his emoticon of choice.

    [/shrugs]
    its safe to say that I train some martial arts. Im not that good really, but most people really suck, so I feel ok about that - Sunfist

    Sometime blog on training esp in Japan

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKiller View Post
    When doesn't the bigger, stronger, faster win?

    Where are all the little, weak, slow world champions?
    Chess...Spelling Bees....shall I keep going?
    Guangzhou Pak Mei Kung Fu School, Sydney Australia,
    Sifu Leung, Yuk Seng
    Established 1989, Glebe Australia

  15. #60
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    Gino Sifu

    As you can see, you might have gotten off on the wrong foot.

    Firstly, there are many people on this board that are your equal at least, in many aspects of MA, you don't need to patronise or condescend to begin with, poor form.

    Secondly, this topic has been well covered under several topics concedrning weight training in MA, weight training as it effects speed, strength training techniques, etc. Thus the new user advice to use the archives before posting.

    Additionally I might add, that this is a forum for competitive fighters, and you can expect a bit of hot sauce with just about everything you order.

    good luck
    Guangzhou Pak Mei Kung Fu School, Sydney Australia,
    Sifu Leung, Yuk Seng
    Established 1989, Glebe Australia

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