Skill or Strength ??

[MightyB]

Roy Harris has a training DVD that's really intrigued me. It's called "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Over 40" http://www.royharris.biz/catalog/i19.html

What intrigues me is the concept of patience. Learning a good base- then letting the other guy do all the work. Let's say that you're in a fight in a bar. You only want to achieve a state of neutrality- you don't want to knock him out or whatever. What's it matter if you take him to the ground and go put yourself in a neutral position like letting him put you in the guard? You don't try to pass, or submit him, or whatever- you just keep a good base and don't let him sweep you (easy if he's not trained). You can stay there long enough for it to be broken up. That's reality nowadays- if you punched him, broke one of his limbs, choked him out- whatever- first of all- the attempt to do any of those exposes you to counter attacks that you may lose, second- if you win- the legal war takes over and that's not a good place to be.

I can already hear your keyboards- "what if he wants to kill you or hurt a family member or there's multiple opponents?" Arm yourself- use lethal force (supposably you're all trained to do that).

[sanjuro_ronin]

Roy Harris has a training DVD that's really intrigued me. It's called "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Over 40" http://www.royharris.biz/catalog/i19.html

What intrigues me is the concept of patience. Learning a good base- then letting the other guy do all the work. Let's say that you're in a fight in a bar. You only want to achieve a state of neutrality- you don't want to knock him out or whatever. What's it matter if you take him to the ground and go put yourself in a neutral position like letting him put you in the guard? You don't try to pass, or submit him, or whatever- you just keep a good base and don't let him sweep you (easy if he's not trained). You can stay there long enough for it to be broken up. That's reality nowadays- if you punched him, broke one of his limbs, choked him out- whatever- first of all- the attempt to do any of those exposes you to counter attacks that you may lose, second- if you win- the legal war takes over and that's not a good place to be.

I can already hear your keyboards- "what if he wants to kill you or hurt a family member or there's multiple opponents?" Arm yourself- use lethal force (supposably you're all trained to do that).

I wouldn't advice playing the "wait n see" game in a violent confrontation outside the ring.

[MightyB]

But, for the most part- people equate violent confrontations with bars, parties, schoolyards- at least what I find with the majority of martial artists on these boards and in the gyms. It's not defend your life stuff- it's basic bar room brawling crap.

Now are these people/"martial artists" looking for trouble? probably. Are they going to use a passive defense? No. Do they deserve to get their butts kicked? yes.

In a true self defense situation- one where the guy wants to kill you- use lethal force- supposably that's what people say they are training... Does it matter how hopped up on coke a guy is if you grab a hold and crush his larynix? Will slamming him with a baseball bat (or other improvised weapon) put him down? Will he be incapacitated by CS gas or a bullet (if you have the necessary permits and training). The question is are you training to be able to do this type of thing if you have to? I'd say "no" for most people. Reality based training is as controversial and rare as MMA training.

[sanjuro_ronin]

But, for the most part- people equate violent confrontations with bars, parties, schoolyards- at least what I find with the majority of martial artists on these boards and in the gyms. It's not defend your life stuff- it's basic bar room brawling crap.

Correct and in that regard, if one can only train one thing, it would, probably, be skill.
That said, we can train for the most likely scenario and be prepared for it, or we can train for the "worse-case" scenario and be prepared for it AND the mostl likely one too.

[SevenStar]

anybody who's reading Sanjuro

The goal of martial arts is for a small guy to be able to defend himself against a bigger guy. If your current training isn't doing that- then explore other options.

heck, the goal of my gun is to kill someone with it, but nothing is absolute... there is no guarantee that the little guy will beat the bigger guy. the only thing MA training does is give you more of a chance.

[SevenStar]

In a true self defense situation- one where the guy wants to kill you- use lethal force- supposably that's what people say they are training... Does it matter how hopped up on coke a guy is if you grab a hold and crush his larynix? Will slamming him with a baseball bat (or other improvised weapon) put him down? Will he be incapacitated by CS gas or a bullet (if you have the necessary permits and training). The question is are you training to be able to do this type of thing if you have to? I'd say "no" for most people. Reality based training is as controversial and rare as MMA training.

This, I agree with. something that has been said here before: "I may not be able to defend myself, but I sure as hell can fight..."

for life or death self defense, get permits and training. carry a gun, knife and oc spray. In this day and age, MA training alone really isn't the ticket for that.

[Yum Cha]

All things being equal Conan beats Peter Pan.

So, you make things un-equal, either by getting really scared, really mad or really angry, moreso than the other guy.

Or, you practice and get skills.

Real fights are not MMA contests. Security work is another special condition. Not counting school yard honour fights and multiple opponent beatdowns, they are quick, hit and run affairs.

I totally agree, MA training is for evening the odds against meaner, bigger or multiple opponents. It will not turn Peter Pan into Conan, regardless.

And of course, for all the physical training, sporting entertainment and comeraderie.