Zhang Zhuang

[YouKnowWho]

to believe that one can do anything at anytime is refusing to accept reality,

Agree with you 100% on this. We may be able to play tennis well with our right hand but we may not be able to play tennis well with our left hand. There are 100 miles apart between knowing how to do it in our "mind" and be able to do it on our "body". A "principle" base TCMA guy may believe that if he can do a "hook punch", he should be able to do a "roundhouse kick". After all both use the same prnciple of "body leads limbs". Even if we know how do do it in our mind, we just can't "do anything at anytime" without training our body how to do it first.

[Hendrik]

You enter into a discussion held by people with different levels of understanding, in a place meant for that, and bemoan the different levels of understanding. Who is not seeing the way, other than you?

if one cant tell what it is one dont have it.

if you know the why, what, and milestone of Zhan Zhuang you are more welcome to share it here.

BTW. the Why, What, and milestone of Zhan Zhuang doesnt depend on the levels we are in. Such as we dont have to go to college. but we must know there is elementry school, high school, college, grad school....etc.

It is a practice to link those, but to link them in standing does not mean one can link them outside.

To do the practice for its own sake without doing it toward its full purpose is to make doing the practice the goal. Taoist practices done to be Taoist miss the mark every time.

I am talking Chinese Martial art training a tangible training not religion or philosophy.

When one cannot link them to outside that just mean one has not train in the six directional forces balancing and attain it. and thus, they have not reach that state in Zhuang Gong.

And you are saying it is outside the Tao that most in any endeavor are not the greatest in that endeavor?

You belittle anyone whose understanding is not what you think it should be, but it seems like you lack understanding in doing so.

Perhaps the goals of some discussing are to understand better by seeing different ideas or other perspectives on the thing, while yours are to convince of what you think is.

Yet, your approach is more suitable to a place where your ideas are the central theme, and yet you visit a place where no one view is prescribed. I am not intending to insult, merely noting the situation.

I am talking Chinese Martial art training in very specific of what is Zhang Zhuan is for.

One always can accuse others on belittle when one cannot define and knowing the specific. so why not understand what it is then accuse?

Chinese Martial art training has a tradition and a process based on the general and particular style. that is not up to different ideas.

Most kungfu in China, Taiwan, and everywhere else, does not include any of the steps you are discussing in any real sense.

Why should those of us who may find some use in it be upset or degrade those who do not?

If I cant see Sun that doesnt mean sun doesnt exist.

Finding out what it is and where do one stand got nothing to do with upset or degrading. upset or degrading comes when one loves one's ego more then the facts.

You avoid defining level 4, but aside from this, I must disagree with aspects of what you are saying.

I dont avoid defining level 4. in fact, it is already defined. I am just a messenger. all of these are not my invention. I dont want to eleborate level 4 because before one could get beyond level 1. one could not understand what is level 4.


you can disagree with me, however that is not my definition. I am just a messenger. You can shoot me, but you cant change the reality of Chinese TCMA tradition.

Taoism dictates that the way of a human is in being human, and to pretend to have a tortoise shell is just pretending.

One can maximize human attributes, and work in an optimal way, but one cannot surpass them.

The desire to surpass them is what Zhuangzi talked about when discussing one man who lived long being a legend being laughable when a tortoise in a nearby village lived far longer.

You are talking philosophy here.

I am talking the Chinese Neigong cultivation which is practiced in the internal art ring. It is well define, with specific goal, and the mile stone of attainment is clear.
unless one has walked the journey one doesnt know. It is not the philosophy where one can reason with anything one like.

For some it is a religious practice, but we're not discussing them.

As for strengthening the physical body, it is one way, but I'm not aware of a single tradition that relies on it as the only way, nor should that aspect of it even approach the importance of its use in the first sense, regarding forces.

Again, I am talking Chinese martial art Neigong road map of Zhan Zhuang. Not philosophy or religious.

Where did I say it is the only way?

The above 4 levels are a general summary of Chinese Neigong training in Chinese internal Martial art practice. Zhan Zhuang is not the only way but if one is practicing Zhan Zhuang then the road map of the 4 level is clear.

Not sure who is bringing up wrestling, but, if the Tao didn't favor wrestling, there would be no wrestling.

If knowing how to handle force training excludes wrestling, knowing that the Tao is that wrestling exists, then what does that say about one's approach to training.

Applications in taoist martial arts, at their best, are merely unadulterated pictures of what happens when you are connected and an external force is applied to you that you don't fight.

My post of revealing the 4 general level of Traditional Neigong practice milestone in Chinese Martial art is to answer the first post of the thread in details.


You are talking religion and Tao can be anything you like to define. I am ok with whatever you speculate or your believe.

however, I am presenting the Chinese martial art tradition's level and milestone.
of what is Zhan Zhuang, what is it, why is it, and what one expect to achieve.
So, we are talking two different things.

I disagree.

If the Tao is that I am being pushed rearward, then all must start from this, and it is not the case that I should fight the Tao, but join it and move to the next point.

If the Tao is that I am being pushed, but the pusher is muddy in their attempt, then it may be the case that pushing back more immediately dissolves their force, whereas allowing the push that doesn't fully exist may just make it real.

The physical body is defining this, to believe otherwise is entirely missing the point of standing post.

To not fight what is requires acceptance of what is, receptivity guiding creation, to believe that one can do anything at anytime is refusing to accept reality, it is not receptivity, it is not listening, and no creation will often come from this.

I am perfectly ok with your Tao believe and perfectly respect your ideas.

However, I am not going there. I am specifically in the realm of Chinese Martial art training -- Zhan Zhuang, what is it, why is it, what is the goal of it.

and there is no compremised in the 4 level of training. one simple needs to know where one is.

I might be only in level 1 or not even level 1 yet, however, that got nothing to do with sharing the facts in the Neigong practice.

There is no one root to Chinese kung fu.

That is your opinion and it is fine with me.

for those who like to see reality of TCMA,
Ask a simple questions why is it Shao Lin has Zhuang Gong, Xing Yi has Zhuang Gong, Emei has Zhuang Gong,..... Southern TCMA has horse standing....?

[Hendrik]

Zhan Zhuang in Chinese Martial art Neigong training is not a religion, not a philosophy, but a solid clear well define training.

It doesnt have the warm feeling of " oh, you are in Dao, I am in Dao too. we both in the Dao.... and Dao means......etc "

instead,

it is " which level have you attained? can you kung fu handle what you face?"

Even more critical, Does one know what one train in and what kind of result or end goal one has?


It is not an easy thing to shallow.
but it is a reality if one decide to get into martial art neigong training.

[Taixuquan99]

In China, either neigong is taoist, or buddhist(with taoist influence). The neigong that openly defies Taoist principles is where?

[Taixuquan99]

Agree with you 100% on this. We may be able to play tennis well with our right hand but we may not be able to play tennis well with our left hand. There are 100 miles apart between knowing how to do it in our "mind" and be able to do it on our "body". A "principle" base TCMA guy may believe that if he can do a "hook punch", he should be able to do a "roundhouse kick". After all both use the same prnciple of "body leads limbs". Even if we know how do do it in our mind, we just can't "do anything at anytime" without training our body how to do it first.

And some things simply cannot be done.

[Hendrik]

In China, either neigong is taoist, or buddhist(with taoist influence). The neigong that openly defies Taoist principles is where?

Could you please introduce yourself and the martial art you practice and who you learn from?

what is the neigong that defies Taoist principles? which Neigong? and Which Taoist principle according to which Taoist classic?

Please be specific on the details and practice.

[Hendrik]

Agree with you 100% on this. We may be able to play tennis well with our right hand but we may not be able to play tennis well with our left hand.


There are 100 miles apart between knowing how to do it in our "mind" and be able to do it on our "body".


A "principle" base TCMA guy may believe that if he can do a "hook punch", he should be able to do a "roundhouse kick". After all both use the same prnciple of "body leads limbs". Even if we know how do do it in our mind, we just can't "do anything at anytime" without training our body how to do it first.

We are talking Zhan Zhuang here so it is not "mind" or "principle" based.

it is a practice , training, with clear process, and milestone of attainment.


That is the reason one needs to be very specific and with a milestone on what is one doing.

[YouKnowWho]

We are talking Zhan Zhuang here so it is not "mind" or "principle" based.

I was agreeing with Taixuquan99's comment, "to believe that one can do anything at anytime is refusing to accept reality."

Can Zhan Zhuang help you to develop your "single leg shooting"? If you think that ZZ can help you to learn anything, you are just not honest to yourself.

When you spend 6 hours a day train your ZZ. Another guy spends 6 hours a day train his "single leg shooting". Who is going to win after 3 years of training? I understand that "combat" may not be on your highest priority list. For those people who treat "combat" seriously, they may not want to take the same path as you do.

If I'm going to have a death match in 3 months, I don't think I'll spend any of my training time in those 3 months doing ZZ. IMO, ZZ is just not the best way to help someone to be a good fighter.

[Hendrik]

Only if your world view is such that you think Taijiquan is slow stuff old people do...

The issue here is the level of practice.


Most people who did Taijiquan doesnt reach the level 1 of training as my previous post. Thus, the benifit is not that much.

A few passed level 1 training, that can have a good health benifit, however, that doesnt have any martial art /fighting applications ability.

even rare get into level 2 training, which started martial art figthing applications, thus Taiji fighter is rare.


to passed level 2 and get into level 3, we are looking at people like Chen Xio-wang.

To passed level 3, we are looking at people like Sun Lu-Dang or Gou Yun Shen or Wang Xiang-Zai.



it is a mess, if one's practice is only within level 1 and thinking what s/he learn has any martial art ability. it is also a mess without the level 2 training one think s/he could fight with an ordinary fighter such as the Suai Chio or mmA.

However, with a level 2 and above training, one will certainly be able to handle Suai Chio or mmA fighter.

[Hendrik]

I was agreeing with Taixuquan99's comment, "to believe that one can do anything at anytime is refusing to accept reality."

I agree with that too.

believing without attainment is delusion.

Can Zhan Zhuang help you to develop your "single leg shooting"? If you think that ZZ can help you to learn anything, you are just not honest to yourself.

When you spend 6 hours a day train your ZZ. Another guy spends 6 hours a day train his "single leg shooting". Who is going to win after 3 years of training?

or perhaps as usual,
you dont read what I post but keep thinking the way you want? Who says ZZ can help one to learn anything? read my previous post before making assumption.


As for your question, After three years no one is going to Win.

I understand exactly what path that you are taking. For people who is more interesting in "combat", this's just not the path that people want to take.

The following is from my previous post.

Standing stake is not a replacement of fighting experience.

Standing stake is a cultivation to make one's body, mind, strength, breath, momentum... whole to support the fighting requirements.

I am presenting what is Zhan Zhuang means in Chinese martial art, that simple nothing more and nothing less.

Got nothing to do with interesting in 'combat"....etc. or path I am taking.

[aussie1981]

Chen xioa wang is probably better that the other guy's you mentioned, his fa jing is very refined.

[Hendrik]

Chen xioa wang is probably better that the other guy's you mentioned, his fa jing is very refined.

The other guys I mention were all top martial artists in 1930. some have beat Olympic wrestle and Japanese Judo challengers in China. These people are real deal. not sport man but live and die with martial art. The four level I mention was related to them closely.

[Taixuquan99]

I do taixuquan.

Since my teacher wasn't Chinese, you wouldn't know him.

I do not dispute the idea of the levels of practice at all. I do dispute that the higher levels are attained by ZZ. ZZ is best in making one aware of the routes of connection, if pressure here, it releases here, if release here, etc...

In allowing one to translate that into fighting ability, drills like tuishou, in short, training with others, are absolutely required. To familiarize oneself with circuits in ZZ teaches one aspect. One's attainment in it, and one's own basic attributes, if that is the main tool used, will color their expression of energy when crossing hands with people, but to be able to translate zz into fighting from a perspective of dealing with energy, one has to face those other energies. ZZ without tuishou is empty of martial relevance to dealing with nuance of outside energy or receptivity of a color one does not know.

As such, ZZ alone cannot teach to deal with a competent fighter, and history has shown this. The fighters you named undoubtedly did other things more than zz, things that gave them experience in knowing how to use the circuits when incoming energy from another fighter is strong, is sly, is slow, is quick, etc. Thus, working with peers, and many of them, not separating into their own classes and surrounding themselves only with students, for example.

As for Taoist texts, of course there are many, but it is safe to say that, if a text is at odds with the tao te ching and the zhuangzi, it is not useful from a taoist perspective. I find the tao te ching interesting in it's complexity, and the Zhuangzi essential in its simplicity. Without the Zhuangzi, Taoism is easily read as an avoidance of what is, but Zhuangzi is clear that those who laud their small little attainments compete with the way. I also find Sun Bu-er quite useful, thus my earlier comments regarding receptivity being required for creativity. From there, there's a number of other texts on specific practices, but even with these, it is vital to understand them in light of the aforementioned texts. As for texts about immortality, they are as laughable now as they were to Zhuangzi, though some of them may be beautiful and holding some meaning, even if they miss the point of being human.

[Taixuquan99]

Additionally, to suggest, because a style trains horse, that they also, by default, use the schema you do, is demonstrably erroneous. The method you are discussing is not applicable to all versions of horse stance in kung fu, at all.

This is not an attack on your method, I tend to agree that the best horse for internal concepts is able to follow the training path you mention, but different paths have different means and goals, which I think is good.

[aussie1981]

Ah ok, beating olymic wrestlers isn't easy. Hasn't chen xioa wang put a few judo guy's on there arse or something? I see what you're getting at with the different levels, a huge problem is that it's all taught to slowly. Three years of this before a further three years of that....