Is kung fu overly complicated?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think as time goes on modernized form and traditional form/fighting will move further and further away from each other.

We already are, within our communities, developing an easily seen seperation between traditional and modern sets.

If people stop using them to teach fighting ( leave that to drills, equipment work and sparring) and stick to suing them for other purposes, forms will find their place.
Its when people become disilusioned with the results that things get dropped,
Doing forms and being told you are learning to fight and then getting your butt kicked because real fighting is nothing like forms is not the way to go.

[diego]

If people stop using them to teach fighting ( leave that to drills, equipment work and sparring) and stick to suing them for other purposes, forms will find their place.
Its when people become disilusioned with the results that things get dropped,
Doing forms and being told you are learning to fight and then getting your butt kicked because real fighting is nothing like forms is not the way to go.

But, but....but I invested 40 years in this schit!.

[Lucas]

But, but....but I invested 40 years in this schit!.

lol

I want to know what kind of mindset is in place when a guy learns a form/set and thinks to himself

"man this is exactly like fighting"


IMO, anyone with half a brain and a little bit of common sense can tell that fighting is not like doing a form by yourself.


where did all the stupid people come from?

[diego]

lol

I want to know what kind of mindset is in place when a guy learns a form/set and thinks to himself

"man this is exactly like fighting"


IMO, anyone with half a brain and a little bit of common sense can tell that fighting is not like doing a form by yourself.


where did all the stupid people come from?

They came from more stupid people...stupid came from i'm guessing someone lied once, and he knew he was untrue so he played stupid...prolly in the bible somewhere

[ittokaos]

Well, I can only say what I know from my limited experience so here it goes.

Forms.

I think that no one should assume that the way the form presents movements are the exact way it is to be used in a fight. Sure, some forms are pretty straight forward but one should always remember that the main purpose of the form was to teach the style but still be secretive.

Like I sated above I can only speak about my experiences so I cant really speak about other styles but in all the Bak Mei I have learned I have yet to find a movement that cant be used for fighting. I would probably have to adjust(because not all movements are straight forward in their applications) the movement but it is there. You just have to look. The more you understand the principles of your art the easier it will be to find the movements. From there you will have to train it and "presto!" instant "secret technique". You just have to try.

I agree with the others who stated that Kung Fu is simple but people have made it overly complicated. I assume it wasnt meant to be however I dont think that it was meant to be easy either. I think that the reason it has become that way is due to the secrecy of the past masters and the fact that people are always looking for the super amazing special punch/kick/etc that makes the style great.

I believe that we have hollywood and wushu to thank for that.

That was my .02.

I hope this helps,

WF

[MightyB]

Here's my take on forms...

I don't know.

The traditional ones teach you a new way of moving that's crucial for the application of whatever style you're learning. But just doing forms and thinking you can fight is way off- but then again- I'll pull combination sequences out of forms when I'm playing hands and be able to land a shot or two. But the form as a whole never plays out in a fight- just one or two combinations from that form.

How many of you have been in class doing applications and somebody counters the technique being taught? The instructor sees the counter- thinks about it- then devises a counter for the counter. Now would that work or is that hindsight proving to be 20/20 vision?

That's kind've how I feel about forms. I think the individual applications work- it's the string of applications that may not work.

the B.

[Seppukku]

Yes, kung fu is overly complicated to the meager minds of mentally handicapped students.

And groundfighters and grapplers, of course. (But we already knew that, didn't we?)

[Old Tiger]

I also think that it is both simple and overly complicated. The techniques in the forms are quite simple, once I understand the theory of how and when it should be applied properly. But sometimes, arriving at that understanding gets overly complicated. This has to do with a lot of what is passed on from the teacher. There are a lot of reasons why a teacher cannot pass on the full understanding. Ranging from the teacher himself don't know to don't care. In addition, it may also not be the fault of teacher, but the fault of the student. Ranging from someone that can't grasp the concept to someone that just want to learn more forms to advance to the next belt/sash. There are a lot of combinations of these teachers and students issues within any MA's, so I won't go into it since it has already been covered all over the board.

For the case where there is a willing student and a willing teacher to pass on the information, the overly complication lies within the amount of knowledge of the teacher. My base art is Long Fist, which starts out with 10/12 roads of Tan Tui and the first two forms of Lien Bu and Gong Li. If the teacher only has the knowledge of striking, then all the techniques within those basic forms are explained in the context of striking techniques. Even if the teacher and student is willing to spend a large amount of time in breaking down the techniques and try to apply it, some of the techniques still don't make enough sense to use realistically.

However, I was fortunately to have exposure to Shuai Jiao, Taiji and XingYi. From those arts, I now have the benefit of seeing that those strike techniques, esp. those that don't make too much sense are for grappling moves, or to train body structure and not necessary only striking techniques. The real way of understanding the theory and application of the techniques is to break it down, and practice it with a partner in some type of sparring environment. This is what I like about MMA, that they go out and find out what really works and what don't. Unfortunely, I'm too old (more due to family and career commitments) to spend more time to train in a realistic manner.

In our culture, esp. the west, we want everything fast. We want to feel accomplishment by learning new forms or getting the new belt. We get bored or feel stagnate if we don't get to learn a new form in the next x number of months, and we want to drop out. I see that happening a lot. I'm now a little wiser, not a lot, but a little bit more. I have learned quite a few forms, but I am now more fascinated in going back to the basic of Tan Tui, Lien Bu and Gong Li and understand more of the techniques buried within these forms.

I'm not an expert and I could be wrong, but at least this is what I have discovered in my path of kung fu.

[bawang]

if you try to copy the movement of a form it will be hard to learn. you have to know the meaning.
one technique at a time. in three years i only learned 5 or 6 techniques.
if you say forms look nothing like fighting, forms moves are exaggerated yes, but you shouldn't say fighting has to look like this or that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUp1D81kLW8
if you practice the basics a lot, then everything else gets easier. you have to spar.

ps. everybody are raised watching tv learning that boxing and kickboxing is the proper way to fight. when you see form you think "ching chang chong" the crane stance and bruce lee's high pitched scream. this is the real reason you can't fight with kung fu. when you fight for real, you don't want to look like an idiot if you lose.

[sholo86]

IMO a lot of the students nowadays are impatient and wants everything right there in one sitting. Not all movements in a form have an application. A lot of it are transitional movements to get to the next technique. The understanding of when and how to use a technique is key and your teacher should be able to demonstrate or break this down for you.

Yes, you can take away these transitional movements and just concentrate on the "meat and potatos", but you can do that when you're practicing on your own...better yet, with a sparring partner.

Kung Fu forms are not that complicated once you put the time and effort to understand what's behind it all.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Kung Fu forms are not that complicated once you put the time and effort to understand what's behind it all.

A teacher told me that about Quantum Physics.

[B-Rad]

Well, if you convince yourself it's too complicated than it probably is I think some traditional systems have made themselves to complex though. Even different branches of the same system... I might see one branch with 5 forms and then another with 100+. Quite a few traditional systems seem to have more of a performance element to them than they care to admit either (probably due to communist involvement in performance oriented wushu). It's always amusing to hear some groups bad mouth modern wushu when some of the forms they do in public and competitions are about half as martial in content and organization than the old compulsory form