WCK strength, conditioning and nutrition

[YungChun]

What I mean is Lorenzo could support my then 230 lbs from a YJKYM with me pressing all of my body weight against him. That's a 140 lb guy holding up 230 lbs!

Well it sounds good.. Personally I think I could palm him into the next century if I were you standing in front of him like that.

The only 230 pounds of force there was under your shoes IMO..

Again, repeat after me, "YJKYM is not a fixed stance, it is a dynamic platform!"

Indeed it is, but I was referring to, repeat after me----your pic and your test of a static stance (feet don't move) that IMO in that pic is not dealing with great force, nor is that stance supposed to--that's why it must be dynamic--move/change, in order to change and manage real forces....

I look forward to meeting someone who has passed the test so I can see real WCK stance rooting...

Or better yet...

Let's see a video of someone doing it and holding a bathroom type scale on their chest... The pressure applied would clearly indicate the amount of force it holds.. Very easy to do...

[Dan_chi_sau]

static stance[/B] (feet don't move) ..

just because feet dont move, does that mean that the rest of your body is not doing anything either? the picture is static, not the stance

[YungChun]

just because feet dont move, does that mean that the rest of your body is not doing anything either? the picture is static, not the stance

Whatever you want to call it is fine by me...

I simply mean that the stance stays (feet don't move/stance doesn't change) when I use the term static..

It can be as super duper dynamic as you want it and that doesn't change the nature of a bipedal stance. There is always a weak angle in the stance and I would like to see proof that the weak angle (behind/in front of you in YJKYM) can hold any significant force (230 pounds as stated or anything close)..

[aaron baum]

hello guys...if you go to

http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/articl...erarticle.html

there is an article concerning wing chun power...it also covers many of the points that this topic had turned into...and others mentioned in some other posts..re alan orr sifu leaning etc...

you can see with the Medicine ball test that if you have a poor 'S' looking structure in your stance there is no way to effectively control the weight and momentum of the heavy medicine ball...wheras if you have proper rooting you can absorb the impact of the ball without it affecting your structure as well being able to return the ball back with real power and root....we do this test in SLT stance as well, it is exactly the same mechanics but harder...is this exercise not a realistic way to test these mechanics in a live way?

these mechanics then translate into being able to hit someone with real power...something i rarely see in WC unfortunately...re the two set of pictures after the medicine ball test...this loading that people think is leaning is the key to real WC skill and i fear i have not met many who have this...shame...plus gives us the tools to deal with other problems such as grapplers, wheras if you have a poor 'S' shape i guarantee that you will be smashed by decent grapplers etc...

all i can say from my experience training with sifu and sigung for 7 years, is that we have had many, many people come to class to see what we do and i have yet to see 1 person pass Test 1...yet there is a girl called suni at class who is 5'2" and maybe 8 stone who can hold my full body weight on her front and i am 6' and 13 stone...plus obviously which people seem to not realise, is that of course if the point comes when the pressure is too much, we can either sim and let the pressure slide of us, or turn using chum kiu and redirect it, as well as many other things...this test is very basic and just teaches you to begin to understand how to use and become aware of your body rather power rather than just using hand and arm shapes to deal with situations....

getting back to the original post, if you do not train strength and conditioning on a similar par to your skill you will come sorely unstuck in a real situation...in days of old, do you think that people were as weak and unconditioned as we are now as a society? most people did manual work or farmed and as such had naturally developed conditioning...their martial training supplemented and turned that into a more developed skill...they were not unfit people who just learned some principles and thought they could use what they have been shown....YOU NEED IT ALL....and if you say i train just for health and fitness so i dont need to train conditioning etc, do you not think that this will make you fit, be healthier and strong...i see many fit, strong grapplers, wrestlers, boxers, muay thai people, but i can count the number of WC people i have seen who i think **** they are going to be a handful on one hand...

my best to you sigung....keep beasting those KB'S!

aaron

[YungChun]

If your center of gravity is ahead of your feet then you folks may not call it leaning but a good kung fu guy will yank you right out of your shoes... It's called being over committed and favoring forward pressure over being centered. This works great when both folks are dead set on pressing forward and nothing else, but is problematic when the opponent is sensitive to over committed energy--defined by the CG being out ahead of the feet...

Let's see the proof of the bi-ped stance YJKYM force absorption.. All anyone has to do is make a video of the testee hold a small bathroom scale on their chest and then press on the scale...remember they can't move their feet. Then you'll have an instant measurement of force being redirected.. Once you establish max force then pull your hands back suddenly, or better yet pull them forward suddenly and see if they can still stay rooted and don't fall forward, just as bad as falling backward...

[aaron baum]

the opposite of what you keep calling a lean is called biting..if you pull me i can bite into the floor, link my body together and stop this..if i train the right way...or i can let go of the bridge by delinking and let the energy fall away..and then as i have my structure loaded by this so called lean i can attack with forward pressure with power...to be honest when ive rolled with other schools bar none and i mean none, they are the ones who get pulled...they cant handle our forward pressure...if they run they get chased down, if they try and pull they lose balance backwards because they are on their heels, and if they react by trying to match your forward pressure they get floated or pulled themselves...no bull****...i have met none who possess this many levels of skills...plus the horse is mobile, if i do get pulled forward my legs DO work and i can step into you without you unbalancing me...its called footwork..most WC people are stiff from training SLT the normal, incorrect way and they are like a pole balancing on the floor, rather than a fluid dynamic powerful structure that can pull, push, turn, float, subdue, link, delink, run, bite, rub, press, absorb, uproot etc...if you do not understand or practice these terms you have a lower knowledge of the skill with WC

im not attacking anyone but until you have felt this you really do not understand...

best

aaron

[YungChun]

Erm...movement is a series of controlled falls...what do you think walking is? You move your centre of gravity beyond your base of support then adjust your base of support forward (i.e. step) so that you dont fall over.

In other words there is a difference between falling forward and stepping forward. You dont seem to have grasped this re: our structure.

And this has what to do with test #1 which as far as I know doesn't involve walking...

[aaron baum]

nice one nick...we are answering the same question at the same time!

dear god is all i have to say

[YungChun]

Oh my gosh...golly gee...

Let's see the proof... 200 pounds of redirection without a lean in YJKYM....

[aaron baum]

it has this do with test 1...you press the chest and you learn to root this pressure...thats test 1...

if he then pulls you, we can DELINK, FLOAT blah blah blah again...if this does not work rather than falling because of somekind of percieved lean we can step forward as mentioned before...the step is not part of test 1 but is a reaction to a certain pressure dealt with from test 1...

[YungChun]

the step is not part of test 1 but is a reaction to a certain pressure dealt with from test 1...

Indeed..

Fall Step back = Faulty structure

Fall Step forward = Reaction

Uh huh..

In my lineage we call this falling forward from being over committed... Well that's the technical term...

A step has intention being yanked out of your root and stepping is also referred to as an "Oh $hit" move..

[sanjuro_ronin]

It seems that from the pic posted ( and I am going solely on that) that Robert is not fully commited in his "push", but I don't think that would have mattered because, by the way the recipent is standing, he seems to be "redirecting" the push "down" though his body.
We have similar "stance testing" in Kyokushin and such, though it usually involves sanchin as the stance and strikes as the "pushes".

[YungChun]

It seems that from the pic posted ( and I am going solely on that) that Robert is not fully commited in his "push", but I don't think that would have mattered because, by the way the recipent is standing, he seems to be "redirecting" the push "down" though his body.
We have similar "stance testing" in Kyokushin and such, though it usually involves sanchin as the stance and strikes as the "pushes".

Sanchin is not a square stance like YJKYM is.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sanchin is not a square stance like YJKYM is.

Nope,it is more stable, this is true.

[mad101dan]

Sanchin is not a square stance like YJKYM is.

But the principle is the same.

Good luck for Sunday guys.