To Be or Not To Be....

[Ultimatewingchun]

Stable. Strong in one's stance. Basically immovable when confronted with oncoming power/energy/force.

Never go backwards...always be moving forward.

And what about the power on your wing chun strikes?

Since the punches are thrown basically/usually from the elbows-in position and without the same kind of torque from the hips and shoulders that a boxer might use - they are structurally somewhat less powerful than say a boxers hook or rear cross.

How do we make up for that?

Well besides a relaxed but whip-like energy flow through the body and out to the hands/legs - it's done with an explosive driving move from the ground (legs) that jolts the middle of your body forward (and with a slight torque) - putting power into your elbow and therefore the outgoing force is directly behind the striking hand(s) as you push/throw your elbows/hands forward....like the way Rene described Alan's body motion as a: ) rather than as a lean: /

Right?

Now read once again two seemingly different points of view - the first by Phil Redmond...and the second by Robert Chu:

"Real fighting is dynamic. I'd have no reason to test to see if I could stand square on while someone pushed me in the chest. It's just like the Tai Chi Sifus who have many people push on their stance. It looks impressive to laypersons but how would you use that in the ring or in a fight against a much stronger opponent who is coming at you? It just doesn't make sense.
I'd rather be moving to avoid force and while striking. Developing dynamic/moving structure should be the goal if you're going to fight. But I guess I'll be accused of having no structure but I'm good with that because I've been very successful with the approach." (Phil)

..........................................



"Fighting is fighting, structure is structure. In WCK we learn structure so we can have the powerbase to fight with, as it is the source of our power. Its no different from a shot put thrower using his body to generate force to launch the shotput, or being a stable base to use a rocket launcher. If someone can't stand stable, the rocket will go awry. Hope these analogies make things clearer.

I think we shouldn't cop out and think WCK sucks and has no power and that we only have to shift or do MMA, or do some other system to launch WCK tools. Otherwise, our system sucks and WCK is just BS - just a bunch of empty close quarter hand skills put on an unstable base." (Robert)


***NOW HERE'S MY TAKE on all of this: both views need to be incorporated within one's wing chun. One of the biggest benefits of chi sao training is to integrate what you learned in horse/stance/SLT...(stability)...with the ability to move in any direction (including backwards) WHEN THE SITUATION CALLS FOR IT.

The trick is to not give way, half sidestep, full sidestep, etc. - WHEN ALREADY ENGAGED AGAINST HIS FORCE, ie.- there's significant limb-to-limb, or body-to-body contact already in play...unless you have to.

You must link your arms to the rest of your body such that the info gathered in your arms instantly translates into an almost subconscious decision to move - or not move...and if so...how far? and in what direction?

And Why?

(ie.- because now I have his flank and can hit/kick/grab him while momentarily he can't hit/kick/grab me). As one example. Another: it's time to explode forward and hit him with a barrage of strikes on the lines that are now open to me - and do it with lots of forward energy coming off a stable power base that ultilizes my entire body alignment attacking one given point on his body. (So that I'm not just throwing arm punches).

And of course you need the strong stance and stable powerbase to hit with power and to keep the pressure on (so it's him who's going backwards)...as well as to keep yourself rooted when up against someone who's trying to unbalance you.

But wing chun also teaches to avoid fighting force directly with force. Hence avoidance moves, energy release/redirection moves, shifty and interruptable footwork, triangle steps, various sidesteps, etc.

Chi sao greatly helps with the the development of these skills (in the hands, arms, legs, torso) - but must be supplemented by working more spontaneously from a non-contact starting point.

And then Shakespeare would be proud.

[Vajramusti]

Since the punches are thrown basically/usually from the elbows-in position and without the same kind of torque from the hips and shoulders that a boxer might use - they are structurally somewhat less powerful than say a boxers hook or rear cross. (Victor)
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Victor..IMO FWIW:

Developing a proper stable structure internally and externally, improves the wing chun punch. The devil in the details.Of course turning, stepping etc adds to it. One can develop a whole arsenal of punches in wing chun without using a boxer's top heavy structure. Many boxers are susceptible to take downs. Structure development does not imply being robotic in motion. Emphasis on structure is often missing but the emphasis is not limited to one teacher or line.
Depends on who has learned what.

joy chaudhuri

[sanjuro_ronin]

Victor, excellent post.

To me, having been exposed to both the TMA teaching of stances and the sport combat arts "teaching" of stances I can say this:

Without the ability to put into play anythign you develop, in a dynamic and explosive way, its practically useless.

Some of the people with the strongest "roots" are wrestlers and judoka that never do a ounce of "stance training" not in the sense that they devote SPECIFIC training time to it and the "rooting" training that they do is always dynamic.

See structure is important in every sport, it just has be be trained in the same way that it will be allpied, be it WC, or Judo, or powerlifting or shot put.

[Ernie]

tends to come down to peoples characters ....
some guys are Gorillas ,, go head to head nose to nose power junkies ,,tough guys that will never give and inch would rather bump chest and brawl ,,, this type of ''personality will be drawn to what ever training methods lets the be the beast they want to be


other guys are ballerinas ,, technicians perimeter fighters that like to pot shot and set up there attacks [ these tend to be the lighter smaller quicker guys ]
emotionally calmer more patient


perfect example was the mayweather hatton fight ..... mayweather controlled distance never let the guy '' build his pressure '' and pot shotted his a$$ to death ...Hatton rushed in tough guy styles used his face as a catchers mitt ...

[ remember it takes to knuckle heads to create '' pressure'' ] developing a pressure valve pivotal is your personal flex point and not being stubborn.


now the real special is when you get the Gorilla in a tutu ..... dude with excellent footwork distance control angles and can still go in and get ballistic when he chooses [ sets up the right time to apply force ]

mayweather has such skills ,,,, and most ''smart'' non emotional ego fighters do as well =0)

to each there own back to lurk mode

[Phil Redmond]

tends to come down to peoples characters ....
some guys are guerrillas ,, go head to head nose to nose power junkies ,,tough guys that will never give and inch would rather bump chest and brawl ,,, this type of ''personality will be drawn to what ever training methods lets the be the beast they want to be


other guys are ballerinas ,, technicians perimeter fighters that like to pot shot and set up there attacks [ these tend to be the lighter smaller quicker guys ]
emotionally calmer more patient


perfect example was the mayweather hatton fight ..... mayweather controlled distance never let the guy '' build his pressure '' and pot shotted his a$$ to death ...Hatton rushed in tough guy styles used his face as a catchers mitt ...

[ remember it takes to knuckle heads to create '' pressure'' ] developing a pressure valve pivotal is your personal flex point and not being stubborn.


now the real special is when you get the guerrilla in a tutu ..... dude with excellent footwork distance control angles and can still go in and get ballistic when he chooses [ sets up the right time to apply force ]

mayweather has such skills ,,,, and most ''smart'' non emotional ego fighters do as well =0)

to each there own back to lurk mode

Hey Ernie, I'm thinking you meant the Primate (Gorilla), and not a band if irregular soldiers (Guerrilla)..

Hitting heavy bags, striking pads, focus mitts, "Iron Palm" training etc., is neccessary to develop bones and ligaments, for full power striking. Using the torque in the leg and hip in a WC punch instead of just the shoulder/arm is important. A windup haymaker type punch is definately stronger but it's slower. People have to find a happy medium that works efficiently. You can still use a boxers power generation using WC punches.

[aaron baum]

perfect explanation ernie...another example IMO is Anderson Silva...calm, relaxed, non-attached, amazing timing and an animal when he thinks he can finish it....

like most things the middle way...which is the answer to many questions etc...train the skill and train the body to be conditioned, train the form and train the tearup, train the mind and train the body...i just want it all man!

best

aaron

[couch]

Here's my two cents:
I don't feel like there is NO torque power such as that found in boxing. I look at the shift and the way I walk around a dummy arm as a finger pointing to where my torque power is coming from while I tap into Elbow Down-Hip-Foot linking power.

Typed, visual example: If my opponent throws a left hook, MY response would be to eat up the space and walk in with my RIGHT foot first and with the foot facing 45 degrees to the right (setting up for a left-side stance) followed by my LEFT foot trailing behind.

My LEFT foot comes up at about the same time as I shift to the right with my hips creating torque and shoot out my right Tan and left Punch. I can generate a lot of torque this way - even so that I want to raise the LEFT heel off of the ground and sometimes I do.

I don't think the Wing Chun is TOO far of the boxing or vice versa. Even look at the stance. Us WC'ers train the stance with a walk/foot drag and practice getting a set and pre-programmed distance between the feet - boxing uses that giant rubber band to get the same effect.

I see more in common than not.


Comments...

[chusauli]

And what about the power on your wing chun strikes?

Since the punches are thrown basically/usually from the elbows-in position and without the same kind of torque from the hips and shoulders that a boxer might use - they are structurally somewhat less powerful than say a boxers hook or rear cross.

How do we make up for that?

Well besides a relaxed but whip-like energy flow through the body and out to the hands/legs - it's done with an explosive driving move from the ground (legs) that jolts the middle of your body forward (and with a slight torque) - putting power into your elbow and therefore the outgoing force is directly behind the striking hand(s) as you push/throw your elbows/hands forward....like the way Rene described Alan's body motion as a: ) rather than as a lean: /

Right?

Now read once again two seemingly different points of view - the first by Phil Redmond...and the second by Robert Chu:

Hi Victor,

I agree they're seemingly different points of view, but they're both different sides of the same coin. When you have the stable power base, it both absorbs and grounds incoming force and is an excellent medium to launch powerful strikes. You're doing multiple series of ))))))))))))))))))))) to both neutralize and smash the opponent. That whip you alluded to is correct - I am wipping with my whole body and hammering my nail (insert hand tool). And of course the torque from Chum Kiu and other shifts will be used when appropriate, again with the ))))) (what I call the "arc" body). I use the sidesteps, triangle steps, angle steps, "V" steps when necessary, and all to keep the opponent off balance, with that forward pressure generated from that arc.

WCK hand tools can be used on different bases like Phil mentioned in a boxing base, or even MT base, but the best effect is with the WCK arc base.

We should all strive to preserve the past and classical, and apply it NOW against modern systems, so we can work at refining the art and really understanding the ancestors' work.

Best regards,

[Knifefighter]

Many boxers are susceptible to take downs.

Having worked with a variety of WC people and boxers over the years, my experience has been that the WC people are generally much easier to take down.

[Ultimatewingchun]

A variety of wing chun people, huh?!

Here we go. Dale is back.

[Knifefighter]

A variety of wing chun people, huh?!

Here we go. Dale is back.

Ya- holiday break.

At least with me back, you guys won't fight among yourselves so much.

[Ultimatewingchun]

But I'm going to segway off the exchange bewteen Dale and Joy - and into a subject I wanted to cover on this thread sooner-or-later:

1) The elbows down and in toward the center of the body...

2) The sensitivity developed in the arms/hands/torso through chi sao practice...

3) The use of the Centerline principle

4) The wing chun preference for close quarter striking that utilizes very short, quick strikes (compared to a big, booming boxer's rear cross, or an overhand, or a longer reaching straight lead thrown horizontally with the elbows not down and in toward the center of the body)...

5) The wing chun use of various blocks, parries, and redirecting moves designed to engage blows coming in...

ALL CAN POTENTIALLY MAKE A WING CHUN TRAINED FIGHTER HARDER TO TAKE DOWN THAN THE TYPICAL BOXER/KICKBOXER TYPE...

as long as the wing chun fighter understands the limits of where his striking art should end and where standing wrestling/grappling begins.

Pummel to the inside and then throw an elbow strike, anyone?

Or pummel to the inside and then throw a knee strike?

The elbows-in position used in wing chun is tailor-made for a marriage between striking and wrestling/grappling.

AS IS THE VERY STABLE BASE DEVELOPED THROUGH STANCE/HORSE/SLT/CHI SAO TRAINING....

Both being a key factor in this. Along with the shifting (chum kiu), recovery (bil jee), and various footwork used in close quarter wing chun fighting. And don't forget low line heel kicks and knee strikes to his legs.

AND A MARKED TALENT FOR SPRAWLING WHEN NECESSARY.

[sanjuro_ronin]

3) The wing chun preference for close quarter striking that utilizes very short, quick strikes (compared to a big, booming boxer's rear cross, or an overhand, or a longer reaching straight lead thrown horizontally with the elbows not down and in toward the center of the body...

Some boxers (infighters) fight that way, I know I do.

ALL CAN POTENTIALLY MAKE A WING CHUN TRAINED FIGHTER HARDER TO TAKE DOWN THAN THE TYPICAL BOXER/KICKBOXER TYPE...

If you are close enough to clinch, you are going down.

[Knifefighter]

ALL CAN POTENTIALLY MAKE A WING CHUN TRAINED FIGHTER HARDER TO TAKE DOWN THAN THE TYPICAL BOXER/KICKBOXER TYPE....

On the other hand, the WC tendency to not give ground is what makes him easier to take down than the boxer, who is more likely to be able to move backwards and is able hit effectively while doing so.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Without the marriage...yeah...you're probably going down.

With it...you can become one tough customer.