Biu Sau

[KPM]

Because I can also vouch for the fact that William Cheung has never openly taught the 2 as part of TWC.

---Seems that I remember from William Cheung's very first book....the one on the "Deadly Art of Thrusting Fingers"....that he showed a diagonally angled Bil Gee multiple times in his application pictures. Every time he was striking to the point where the neck meets the shoulder it was a diagonal Bil Gee. I never realized it was supposed to be a secret.

[sihing]

Nice talking to you, James, as always.

The feeling is mutual

[k gledhill]

In my vt we use the SLT as a starting point to develop clearing lines /strikes that function over the bridge /arm as the main fighting method. We use Bong sao vu-sao combo to maitain attacking while the bridge can be sunk by the same means X'ing over or under if the case may need it.

Bil gee contains the same ideas as SLT just from under to outside the bridge of the attacking arm ...the idea being applied while still in an attack, but just that the attacked side is taller , lifts up, etc..not allowing normal SLT bridging techniques to maintain the attack ...so we seamlessly deliver the same idea but under and to the outside of the same side while STILL attacking without stopping.

The Bil gee also has wrist grab removal [ bowing down elbow] very common initial response to our lead arm/wrist attacking ....followed by elbow trap removal strike [ same as tut sao/ freeing hand, but under and to the outside ina snaking sliding transfer as the SLT to flank the arm with arm actions alone ] ...followed by a jumming sidepalm [ sideplam by design is keeping the elbow inward to use the 'idea ' from SLT or from bilg ee back to slt ....and bil retraction as it is done [ rotation strikes self clearing] ..or how to recover the outside flank of an attacking arm while its gone higher than normal without stopping to figure it out and say " now let me think ...SLAP !! dont think feel..if you concentrate on the finger strike you WILL miss all that heavenly glory ...now with me " [love that scene]

the bil gee can be shown a strike with fingers but then so can SLT after jutsao's ...we see it and teach it as simply hitting after juts in a symetrical 'formalized ' manner
.[ Ive done finger jab's in real fights , very functional, accidentaly in sparring Ive recieved fingers in eye's ...we used to spar after every class in my old school with gloves helmets that had wire mesh for eye protection against intentional eye jabs]

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I met Huey Moy, Moy Yat's nephew, when he was in high school. He brought me to Moy Yat. The school was called Ding Leg back then. It was before I met Duncan Leung. There was also a White Crane Sifu teaching in his apartment. Therefore I was with Moy Yat two different times. I went back to Moy Yat after Alan Lamb left for California. I even had a Moy number which I don't remember. What year was the school called Ding Leg? That way I'll know when I was there the first time." (Phil)


***OF COURSE it was called Ding Leg Yard. It was called by that name from the very beginning of Moy Yat's career in NYC (September, 1973) - up until the time he moved the school to East Broadway in Chinatown in 1979. At which point he stopped using that name, as far as I remember.

.........................................

As for the 2 "extra" diagonal bil jee strikes, Keith, let me try to explain it this way. In William Cheung's book, Bil Jee, and within everything he's ever taught openly within the years that I've been with him...(since August, 1983 through to the present)...he shows 4 different angles of bil jee.

1) The hand is held vertically and the fingers change direction to go downward at the end

2) The hand is held vertically and the fingers change direction and go upward at the end

3) The hand is held horizontally and the fingers change direction and go to the left at the end

4) The hand is held horizontally and the fingers change direction and go to the right at the end.


The two others, as I learned them from Moy Yat, are done differently. The actual angle of the strikes themselves - all the way through - do not use a straight horizontal line going directly out from your body toward the opponent. The hand/fingers travel on a diagonal line starting from a place not on your centerline - (although they finish up on your centerline)...and go diagonally out toward the opponent.

Your right hand bil jee strike done in this manner would have the fingers pointing to the left at 45 degrees (although the arm itself starts at 0 degrees)...and your left hand bil jee strike done in this manner would have the fingers pointing to the right (at 45 degrees).

So yes, Phil, the wrist would be "bent" - as you put it.

Getting back to Keith...your fingers are coming at him (ie.- the side of his neck, carotids, etc.) from a diagonal 45 degres angle - even though you might be standing right in front of him.

Hence 2 extra bil jee strikes.

........................................

All this said - this is again one of those things that is much ado about nothing. For although he's never really "taught" any diagonal strikes per say, I've seen some photos here-and-there through the years (ie.- magazine covers, seminar brochure photos)...wherein William Cheung is throwing a diagonally aimed bil jee strike at someone.

[Phil Redmond]

Because I can also vouch for the fact that William Cheung has never openly taught the 2 as part of TWC.

---Seems that I remember from William Cheung's very first book....the one on the "Deadly Art of Thrusting Fingers"....that he showed a diagonally angled Bil Gee multiple times in his application pictures. Every time he was striking to the point where the neck meets the shoulder it was a diagonal Bil Gee. I never realized it was supposed to be a secret.

Hi Keith, that biu jee was never a secret. I guess my joke failed here. You are right. The diagonal biu jee is in Cheung Sifu's first book many times. Knowing that, I said "secret" in jest but I guess some people have no sense of humor. The diagonal biu jee strike was taught privately and openly at many seminars. I have video proof of that from seminars in New Jersey, Detroit and Toronto.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Well I guess that settles it, Phil.

You were just kidding.

[KPM]

Hi Keith, that biu jee was never a secret. I guess my joke failed here. You are right. The diagonal biu jee is in Cheung Sifu's first book many times. Knowing that, I said "secret" in jest but I guess some people have no sense of humor. The diagonal biu jee strike was taught privately and openly at many seminars. I have video proof of that from seminars in New Jersey, Detroit and Toronto.

Hey Phil! I could see that you were joking! Given the response you received, I threw in that comment about the technique showing up in William Cheung's very first book to show that there was no way it could be a "secret."

[Ultimatewingchun]

That's funny...because when I looked through the book again yesterday, all I saw were the up, down, left, and right bil jee strikes. Didn't see anything diagonal. Unless there's a misunderstanding here about the logistics of the downward bil jee strike - because it also turns slightly left or right as it does downward - making it look a bit diagonal at the very end.

But that's different than the 2 extra ones I referred to with Moy Yat - which come from a diagonal path right from the get-go.

Yes....the word "secret" can easily cause a stir.

[Phil Redmond]

Hey Phil! I could see that you were joking! Given the response you received, I threw in that comment about the technique showing up in William Cheung's very first book to show that there was no way it could be a "secret."

Whew, thanks. I'm glad someone got it.
Phil

[Phil Redmond]

That's funny...because when I looked through the book again yesterday, all I saw were the up, down, left, and right bil jee strikes. Didn't see anything diagonal. Unless there's a misunderstanding here about the logistics of the downward bil jee strike - because it also turns slightly left or right as it does downward - making it look a bit diagonal at the very end.

But that's different than the 2 extra ones I referred to with Moy Yat - which come from a diagonal path right from the get-go.

Yes....the word "secret" can easily cause a stir.

Some points require a straight on strike. Some require a downward or upward strike. Some require a diagonal strike. It can all depend on how you are positioned with your opponent The strikes of the following pages require diagonal "insertion" for maximum effect with regards to the organ meridians and position: They don't just look diagonal, they are diagonal.
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/accu.asp
Page 140 pic 4
Page 141 pic 4
Page 145 pic 6

[Ultimatewingchun]

Nice meridian diagrams.

And this has what? to do with bil jee strikes? Are there any bil jee strikes to be found in this link???

[Phil Redmond]

Nice meridian diagrams.

And this has what? to do with bil jee strikes? Are there any bil jee strikes to be found in this link???

Look at the srtikes on the pages I indicated. Then look for the corresponding points.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Looked at the pics on the pages...but I'll still repeat this:

"There's a misunderstanding here about the logistics of the downward bil jee strike - because it also turns slightly left or right as it does downward - making it look a bit diagonal at the very end.

But that's different than the 2 extra ones I referred to with Moy Yat - which come from a diagonal path right from the get-go."

...........................................


THE EXTRA 2 bil jee strikes within Moy Yat's bil jee form are thrown differently....as I said previously here:

"The two others, as I learned them from Moy Yat, are done differently. The actual angle of the strikes themselves - all the way through - do not use a straight horizontal line going directly out from your body toward the opponent. The hand/fingers travel on a diagonal line starting from a place not on your centerline - (although they finish up on your centerline)...and go diagonally out toward the opponent.

Your right hand bil jee strike done in this manner would have the fingers pointing to the left at 45 degrees (although the arm itself starts at 0 degrees)...and your left hand bil jee strike done in this manner would have the fingers pointing to the right (at 45 degrees).

So yes, Phil, the wrist would be 'bent' - as you put it.

Getting back to Keith...your fingers are coming at him (ie.- the side of his neck, carotids, etc.) from a diagonal 45 degres angle - even though you might be standing right in front of him.

Hence 2 extra bil jee strikes."

[Phil Redmond]

. . .
But that's different than the 2 extra ones I referred to with Moy Yat - which come from a diagonal path right from the get-go." . . . .

That's interesting. The diagonal strikes Sifu Cheung teaches start on a diagonal path "from the get-go" as well. In fact, it's part of the finger strenghtening training.

[Ultimatewingchun]

And exactly what position/angle is the arm held when it's thrown...?

and the hand....? Is the position/angle the same as the arm?

and the fingers....? Are they held facing the same way as the arm?

and in what relation to the centerline is the hand/arm when it starts...?

and when it ends?