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Thread: Using A Forward Attack...

  1. #1
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    Using A Forward Attack...

    In this vid:
    http://www.pekiti.com/video_clips/palmst.mpg

    we see the face being hit to "impede" the Right Punch/Attack. This seems to have some similarity to WC. The only problem I see is that there is no insurance on that Right Attack.

    Personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable with this and would rather cover up or jam that Right Attack.

    Thoughts from a WC perspective?

    Best,
    Kenton Sefcik
    “An ounce of action is worth a ton of theory.” – Friedrich Engels

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by couch View Post
    Thoughts from a WC perspective?
    Eeeeeeewwwwwwww!


    Aside from the center energy issuing thing...

    It's just another dead technique..

    Blauer does it better:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--74CtXS6Y4

    So do these guys:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PL2fYzsmRY
    Jim Hawkins
    M Y V T K F
    "You should have kicked him in the ball_..."—Sifu

  3. #3
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    not often that you see two threads that could cross over on here, but IMHO the first thing you do is think about that knife in the right hand, where if anything could do something about it, then maybe it's biu into that right arm elbow joint.(with biu da)
    Personally, unless there's a huge pool cue to hand, then I'm running the minute that bad boy starts swinging with a blade, but in a perfect wing chun world, close the gap, biu that knife holding hand, and hope he doesnt have the skill to also deal with your right hand killer bosh to the guys face.

  4. #4
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    we see the face being hit to "impede" the Right Punch/Attack. This seems to have some similarity to WC. The only problem I see is that there is no insurance on that Right Attack.

    ---Sure there is! He has the guy off-balanced. He has moved his center of gravity which would make it very difficult for him to launch any kind of attack with his right hand. He could have made it even better by moving into the guy and forcing him to take a step. He likely would really do this in application. Since this is a demo, he probably didn't want to move out of frame.

    ---I also see this as similar to WCK. Pekitia has several features that make it similar. Why would you wait for him to throw that right hand before you responded to it? He defended by pre-empting the main attack. The attacker never really got his shot off. He angled away and stepped in to off-balance him to keep him from using the other hand, then he retaliated.

    ---The hand he is controlling the guy with is basically a Fut Sao (or San Sao depending on your terminology) that he has turned into a neck controlled hand (like from the dummy form). He could have continued to draw the guy downward into a rising knee strike if he had chosen to.
    Last edited by KPM; 12-16-2007 at 07:52 AM. Reason: clarity

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    but IMHO the first thing you do is think about that knife in the right hand, where if anything could do something about it, then maybe it's biu into that right arm elbow joint.(with biu da)


    He never gave the guy a chance to throw it, so why would you consider doing that? Why would you wait for the blow to come, when you could prevent him from doing it from the start?

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    It's just another dead technique..

    ---I'm not sure what you mean by that?

    Blauer does it better:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--74CtXS6Y4

    ---The guy never really got a chance to throw his right. That was the whole point of the Pekiti technique being shown!

    So do these guys:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PL2fYzsmRY[/QUOTE]

    ---Did you notice the attacker had the knife in the reverse grip? Had this technique been used it would have resulted in the defender have his belly laid wide open!

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    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    It's just another dead technique..

    ---I'm not sure what you mean by that?
    The guy is just going through the motions and barely at that.. IMO he couldn't pull off his own technique if the attack was real.

    IOW his execution was unconvincing as was the case with the "attack"...

    As I said, Blauer does it better and more convincingly...
    Jim Hawkins
    M Y V T K F
    "You should have kicked him in the ball_..."—Sifu

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    The first two examples in the clip were unarmed.

    Irregardless of the knife or not - I'd jam that attacking arm with something. I completely understand the idea behind off-balancing with a centre-based defense, but it's *almost* like the

    "shortest distance between two points is a straight line"

    theory - where a straight punch beats a round. In a drill/sparring situation, I find it doesn't matter if there's a centre-based defense because my opponent is just then throwing a "fade-away" shot. Just might connect.

    The thing with the Blauer demo, even though it is a *slow* John Wayne haymaker (and not a tight hook), it's forward with pressure AND has coverage on attacking limbs.

    Best,
    Kenton Sefcik
    “An ounce of action is worth a ton of theory.” – Friedrich Engels

  9. #9
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    Irregardless of the knife or not - I'd jam that attacking arm with something.

    ---When dealing with a knife, the two most viable options are either to latch on to the knife limb and control it, or avoid the knife limb and keep out of the line of attack. The Pekiti clip was illustrating option B. I can assure you that they also have plenty of technique for doing option A.

    The thing with the Blauer demo, even though it is a *slow* John Wayne haymaker (and not a tight hook), it's forward with pressure AND has coverage on attacking limbs.

    ---The problem with the Blauer demo if the guy was armed with a knife (which was dealing with option A), is that he did not necessarily adequately control the attacking limb. He was basically doing a Biu Sao. If the attacker had some training, he could easily redirect his attack quickly to strike beneath the Biu Sao. A better technique for option A is a Gan/Jum Sao. One of the basic Pekiti techniques is very similar to a Jum Sao. In training this, Marc Denny of Dog Brother's fame quickly came to the realization that an attacker with a knife could redirect beneath his "Jum Sao" just as I described. So he adapted the technique to add a lower half to prevent this from happening. What he came up with was a Gan/Jum Sao! He calls it the "Dog Catcher."

  10. #10
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    The clip shows a very basic body angling/ wall response from Pekiti / Dekiti and a lot of FMA. Guys who have done that kind of knife tapping know that it places emphasis on using the Jum sao as the correct hand and the Biu / Tan / etc. as the 'Bad hand'.

    From what I understand (my apologies to Tuhon Bill) this angling pulls the body and vitals away from what could be a very long blade thrust into the neck or vitals in an action that is very similar to TWC's 'facing the attack.' It is primarily an emergency response - a jam/ hit would be the ideal case especially if you have a knife yourself. Aside from the structural problems of such a jam, a main technique is the pakal knife where the blade is in ice pick grip and inverted. The blade is then used to clamp the blocking limb and fillet off a huge chunk of skin and flesh in a circular motion before stabbing again. The jum sao makes this less likely since it has a better disengage but hey it's a freakin' knife!

    The hit Tuhon Bill uses is also a circular wall / redirect that is prepared for use against the assailant's blade - he just uses on the guy's neck first.

    The message that I got from various FMA guros is that you're going to have to move whatever way is necessary anyway - sometimes towards the blade. But given a choice stay away from it.

    Later,

    Metadragon

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by couch View Post
    I'd jam that attacking arm with something.
    Meanwhile he receives the lead with what looks like a huen sao and just makes like the lead is a walk in the park, the attack was totally unrealistic--no skill but also no intent.
    Quote Originally Posted by couch View Post
    I completely understand the idea behind off-balancing with a centre-based defense, but it's *almost* like the "shortest distance between two points is a straight line"
    Two parts of the same animal.. The first guy never really shows the move in a realistic manner IMO.
    Quote Originally Posted by couch View Post
    theory - where a straight punch beats a round. In a drill/sparring situation, I find it doesn't matter if there's a centre-based defense because my opponent is just then throwing a "fade-away" shot. Just might connect.
    Absolutely because no one attacks like in the first clip and no one would actually defend a real attack like that--it would never happen like that...

    Folks need to understand something called Hick's Law and how it effects how we react and how we can react..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr7bojwFacA

    And when you do go for the intercept, as you say, you really have to do something, take something away and really counter and have good timing, manage distance, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by couch View Post
    The thing with the Blauer demo, even though it is a *slow* John Wayne haymaker (and not a tight hook), it's forward with pressure AND has coverage on attacking limbs.
    A lot of what Blauer deals with is what LEO's deal with, common street attacks. A proper boxing 'tight hook' is normally an inside move..

    It was done slow because he wasn't emphasizing the actual move he was talking about the 'bridge' and using the move to transition to whatever you are comfortable with or have trained.. Via the fence and the spear shape which again, uses the same shape WCK does..
    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    The problem with the Blauer demo if the guy was armed with a knife (which was dealing with option A), is that he did not necessarily adequately control the attacking limb.
    And the other guy looked more convincing? Yikes.. I think my grandma could slice that guy up with her letter opener... LOL

    The CG attack is what SPEAR is all about--CG energy issuing--advanced structure--and use of open hands---sound familiar?

    Blauer specializes in knife defense as well and doesn't use goofy moves..

    The WCK move also completely controlled the opponent's ability to use the other hand as per the elbow position..

    Here's Blauer again showing the CG control aspect better, et al:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWeCWtI3d5c
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWWl7tjxe6Q

    Energy issuing...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuA17VoJgNo
    Last edited by YungChun; 12-17-2007 at 05:55 AM.
    Jim Hawkins
    M Y V T K F
    "You should have kicked him in the ball_..."—Sifu

  12. #12
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    Bauer knows his stuff and Tony is open to anyone testing him.
    His HighGear Is very good and offers serious protection and no compromise in mobility.
    Although the issues that go with all types of protection go with his stuff to.

    Many systems advocate that "stop hit/block" to the attacking arms shoulder to block out and control the armed limb, STAB and REDZONE are two examples.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  13. #13
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    Remember Chu Fen Do...?

    Those were the days..
    Jim Hawkins
    M Y V T K F
    "You should have kicked him in the ball_..."—Sifu

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    but IMHO the first thing you do is think about that knife in the right hand, where if anything could do something about it, then maybe it's biu into that right arm elbow joint.(with biu da)


    He never gave the guy a chance to throw it, so why would you consider doing that? Why would you wait for the blow to come, when you could prevent him from doing it from the start?

    If you're suggesting pre-emptive, then yeah, biu da is not the first thing I'd think of. Pool cue, dustbin, bas ruttens 'grab a chair!'. Or just smash his face, eh?
    But if I've got time to do that then I've got time to consider leaving. My reference to biu sau was for if the knife is on its way, rather than the head, eat the space, strike and biu.
    I drilled this scenario with a friend last night, using a felt pen as a replacement. We tried the way in the video, as well as biu into the knife holding arm, also tried flanking to the non knife side to control. I feel both were better options.
    Going for the head had a cartoon on my arm in no time. I think it read 'meet what comes'

  15. #15
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    Again... Reality is, um different..

    As Dale has mentioned, most of the time you will have NO IDEA he has a knife.. Most folks only realize the opponent has a knife when they feel wet and then notice that they are covered in blood..

    Got to shut down the attack, use whatever methods do that..ASAP....
    Jim Hawkins
    M Y V T K F
    "You should have kicked him in the ball_..."—Sifu

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