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Thread: The Shaolin Monastery: History, Religion, and the Chinese Martial Arts by Meir Shahar

  1. #16
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    Well that MIGHT be the problem, it's very hard to get out clear hard consonants without using your mouth.

    Hey, I'm not the one saying there is no real CMA in China, or claiming to be, well anything, much less the only Shaolin Grandmaster in the world... don't be so testy, if you believe it, stand up and be proud of it. Just don't get all tweaked if others think it's funny.
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  2. #17
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    I am not saying that stuff either I believe what I believe and see KC
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  3. #18
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    then why defend it if you don't believe it?
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  4. #19
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    I didnt say that I said I believe what I believe period. I know what I know and have seen I have not said Real Kung fu isnt in China I do know many of the Masters left China for other places after the Communist take over and during the purge. But no matter I had a good work out today and feel good about it and I am happy and what I do is what I do and it takes too long to explain all that I know so that is it. But you are so adamant about projecting that you are right I guess you know every thing. But all that you know was taught to you by someone who may also be wrong as well. no matter the more you rant and rave the less people listen. KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  5. #20
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    no matter the more you rant and rave the less people listen. KC

    Reply]
    That is not really true. For one, he's not ranting and raving, for two he's right, and could prove it in side by side comparisons, so that tends to prevent the masses from tuning him out.

    The guy that is wrong, and has been proven so time, and time again is the one no one listens to.

    Which one are you?
    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing View Post
    It's one of the leading publishers of research on Asia. Academic texts, like academic journals, are seldom sold in general bookstores; you almost never see them in the megachains. The scholarly book industry is almost a completely different animal. They tend not to do major runs, which is why they are so expensive. If you want one, you'll probably have to order through the site.
    Or look in a university library. I found this microform file at GSU about Taiwan's research into traditional kung-fu uniforms. I could scan some and try to email them to interested parties, if anyone is interested. Boring stuff, but it was a Taiwanese committee that conducted the research.

    Just puttin' it out there for anyone interested.

  7. #22
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    Meir Shahar Shaolin book

    Is really great. I've been reading it. And it proves Shaolin has been doing martial arts for far longer than Ming dynasty.

    Most of my own personal research has been verified in his book (not trying to be a **** or tooting my own horn, but hell, I've gotten so much **** from people who didn't believe it, so it is great to have been pointing in the right direction all this time. Makes me go "WooHooo!" though.

    I have long said that all of Shaolin's Nei gong and Quan sets can be done with the Staff and that all shaolin material is first derived from movements of using a staff and THAT stuff comes from Double Sword movements that arose from Tang dynasty military martial art weapons drills (essentially what is called Tong Bei or Tong Bi today). Yuo can date the sets from how much this is true in the movements.
    He already points this out in the introduction of the book before he even gets to the whole proving in the rest of the book.
    Looks like he went through hundreds of ancient books that had direct references to martial monks and what they did.

    After I read the whole book I'll post any great things I come across.

    Meanwhile over the the last six months, I've been proving this theory by making a giant comparison chart that move by move, posture by posture, lines up the direct correspondence the exact same sequences of movements in the Wu, Wu (Hao), Yang, Chen Yi Lu sets with each other AND with Shaolin Tai Zu Chang Quan, Shaolin Rou Quan, Shaolin Chan Yuan and 6 Harmony Nei Gong AND with Tong Bei Strange Flower Intersecting Striking Cannons set and Tong Bei drills.

    I show in a giant 11 x 17 chart that all these TJQ, Shaolin, and Tong Bei sets and drills follow the SAME exact sequences of movements, with slight variations, in order and you can see the evolution of the movements from Tong bei on to TJQ.

    Next step is to have links for each set of movements in each style available so that people can see exactly how the movements evolved and developed from Tong Bei to TJQ with Shaolin in the middle making the evolution happen.

    Meir Shahar's book shows how the martial monks brought in military training to Shaolin and it evolved from sword and spear weapons to staff to empty hand from the Sui and tang dynasties to the Ming dynasty.

    It's a great book!

    Gene, if you would like to publish my new article with chart, that would be great, you can do an online version that shows the movements being done and a paper version?

  8. #23

    the Shaolin book

    I am half way through the book- its a good book. I may comment more when I am through.

    joy chaudhuri

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri View Post
    Gene, if you would like to publish my new article with chart, that would be great, you can do an online version that shows the movements being done and a paper version?
    that would be most interesting, as i have not been able to visualize that for the life of me!

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    that would be most interesting, as i have not been able to visualize that for the life of me!
    Well, it will be published in the Ezine version of Kung Fu magazine soon, so you can see it there.

    Also, I am willing to hold seminars in NY or NJ or go to other states if someone will host a seminar to teach this.

    I am going to Spain in May to teach the Shaolin transition nei gung sets that are between tong bei and TJQ.
    If any one wants to attend that, contact me privately and I will put you in touch with the people holding the seminar.

  11. #26
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    I finished read the book.

    Well, I answered most of my questions and verified all the research I have been doing on my own, so I am pretty happy with the book.

    He answers questions people have had without realizing he is doing it, because he is not a martial artist.

    A whole other book can be written in follow up to this own from a martial artist's perspective.

    There's info in the book on origins and connections to Shaolin of such styles Tai Tzu, Mizong, Plum Flower, and many others. Stuff that has baffled people for ages.

  12. #27
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    Meir Shahar Shaolin book

    I bought this book on Gene's advice. I have a love/hate relationship with it. On one hand it has a lot of useful info in it for some upcomming articles I've been working on for the mag. On the other hand now I have to rework allot of projects that I had going because of the research

    Gene is right though, you shouldn't even attempt to write about shaolin until you read this.
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  13. #28
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    One of the things I enjoyed about the book was how even in ancient times there were "lineage" issues and oen master or another berating anothers technique saying that there is the best and they they have the real *insert MA here*.

    Somethings never change.
    And the more "secret" or "esoteric" and the more it was passed down by oral traditions alone, the worse.


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  14. #29
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    I'll get a copy for my b-day.

    Sal, I always thought it was common knowledge that Shaolin had MA practice long before Ming Dynasty.

    Even when I was a kid (I'm 44 now) I was hearing the info about them having martial arts practice during Tang Dynasty.

    *edit*
    looks like amazon is outta stock! agggh, gotta purchase fast!
    Last edited by David Jamieson; 03-24-2008 at 02:49 PM.
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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    I'll get a copy for my b-day.

    Sal, I always thought it was common knowledge that Shaolin had MA practice long before Ming Dynasty.

    Even when I was a kid (I'm 44 now) I was hearing the info about them having martial arts practice during Tang Dynasty.

    *edit*
    looks like amazon is outta stock! agggh, gotta purchase fast!
    Already out of stock? They'll get it again soon.

    Well, common knowledge with the emphasis on "hearing".
    There are a lot of Shaolin haters out there from all time periods that kept wanting to say that Shaolin was all bull and their art was the only true art, etc, etc.
    So, many people today started doubting the history of Shaolin and their connection to martial arts.

    Shahar did a very thorough job research all the written records that are out there about the topic and proved things for Shaolin.

    He couldn't prove EXACTLY what martial art sets and drills they practiced, since that is not in written records, but he did prove that many historical records show that they did practice something, mostly because their martial education came from outside the temple, from the military. Shaolin was basically the National Guard for the Tang Dynasty and later for the Ming.

    Being that Shahar isn't a martial arts that knows Shaolin sets, often in the book he is providing all these great proofs for other Shaolin based martial arts (Tai Zu, Mi tsung, Mei Hua, and others) without even realizing it, in my opinion.

    For people that do know and research the actual martial art sets and drills, they can build from this book and provide further research.

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