Martial Morals

[the Preacher]

Does Martial Arts teach any morality?
or Not?






Eph. 6

Put on the whole armour of God,
that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood,
but against principalities, against powers,
against the rulers of the darkness of this world,
against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God,
that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day,
and having done all, to stand.

Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth,
and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Above all, taking the shield of faith,
wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
And take the helmet of salvation,
and the sword of the Spirit,
which is the word of God:

[Seppukku]

Yes, I used to play with myself, like a lot. My mother told me that idle hands were the devil's playground. And I guess my ***** is the monkey bars. I used to play with my monkey bar all the time, and it started to chafe.

But when I started to do taekwandos and kung fus, I didn't play with myself as much. My priest tells me this is a good thing.

[SPJ]

I would not say morality per se.

one's moral standard was determined by cultural, social, family, religion and one's own perception of the world and relative to others.

MA practice or any physical activity, however, not only build your body physically but also build your mind and character.

such as diligence, endurance, perservance, --

however, each style or MA school may have certain codes of conduct or ethics.

karate has wu de hui.

so do your school have codes, too?

chin woo men was to instill diligence and tolerance/bearance into students

to be diligent or not

to bear or not to bear, that is the question.

--

[Shaolinlueb]

well if you consider who some of our great martial artists were in history. you decide. they were murderer's for a large part, who used thier kung fu to kill, incapacitate or persuade. not until the republican government in 1911 did they start teaching it for health and morals. most of the stuff in movies is confucian stuff that is a movie, not real.

you go figure.

[Black Jack II]

not until the republican government in 1911 did they start teaching it for health and morals.

LMAO...that makes actually no sense whatsoever.

Talk about odd logic.

[B-Rad]

In other words, that's when it started being pushed by the government in their martial arts programs and became a more formal aspect of TCMA. Before that, everything was more clannish and gang like (more about family loyalty rather than having any universal code of wu de). I couldn't say if it's true or not, but I think that's what he's referring to.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hmmmm........let me see if I understand this correctly.

The Shaolin Temple monks are/were Buddhists, they taught the martial arts and trained in the martial arts, but taught no morals or ethics?

Taoist monks trained and taught the martial arts, but had no morals or ethics either?

Morals and ethics are not inherent to any activity. There is no inherent morality or ethics to walking, swimming, fighting or playing basketball. Morals and ethics are taught and followed by those who believe they are essential to living a correct/righteous and good/beneficial life. Just because they were not taught along side many or most martial arts does not mean they were not taught by some.

Even the Samurai were generally expected to follow moral and ethical codes regardless of whether some or many actually followed the codes.

[sholo86]

According to my good buddy Wikipedia - MORALITY (from the Latin moralitas "manner, character, proper behavior") has three principal meanings.
In its first descriptive usage, morality means a code of conduct held to be authoritative in matters of right and wrong, whether by society, philosophy, religion, or individual conscience.
In its second, normative and universal, sense, morality refers to an ideal code of conduct, one which would be espoused in preference to alternatives by all rational people, under specified conditions.
In its third usage 'morality' is synonymous with ethics, the systematic philosophical study of the moral domain.

I normally view morality in it's first descriptive usage. Through our training, we try to live by the martial artists codes of conduct taught or explained to us by our teachers. How many times do we hear people say " If it weren't for martial arts, I would have been..." or "Martials arts helped me...."

So, IMO martial arts do teach morality and help guide those individuals that lack it . It also contributes to the moral growth to those that think they already have good moral backgrounds.

[Mr Punch]

Hmmmm........let me see if I understand this correctly.

The Shaolin Temple monks are/were Buddhists, they taught the martial arts and trained in the martial arts, but taught no morals or ethics?

Taoist monks trained and taught the martial arts, but had no morals or ethics either?

1) A lot of MA didn't come from Shaolin or the Taoists.

2) A helluva lot (emphasis on 'hell'! ) of martial arts in the Buddhist and Taoist sects came from gangsters, bandits and murderers. Think about it: in the West we had the same religious laws: asylum. Felons and lowlifes seeking asylum from the authorities were granted clemency by the monasteries, and in return they protected the monasteries and helped keep their martial traditions alive with new ones.

3) Again related to the above. Think of the Crusades: a lot of moral instruction was not based on improving people but damage limitation. That's why there are so many ecclesiastical treatises to fighting for the power of god: if you get a group of largely celibate, solely male, 50% or so criminal people in a confined space and teach them fighting you're gonna need to use it. In China it was mainly defending themselves, in the West we could attack the Moslems!

These are just a couple of thoughts, not especially backed by any evidence. Feel free to point out flaws in the arguments.

Even the Samurai were generally expected to follow moral and ethical codes regardless of whether some or many actually followed the codes.

That's a very interesting point. Most of the samurai codes were Confucian, and yes of course were moral codes, but more to the point they were societal codes, enforced by and generated by the mores of the society around them. The written codes that we now know as samurai ethics like bushido and the Hagakure, were all written in peacetime, again as constraints on a bored, powerful, dangerous and often borderline or out-and-out criminal class of unemployed warriors.

So I think the moral codes in all of these societies weren't based on: 'Do this because it makes you good,' just on, 'Don't do this or youll go to hell'. More of a plea for restraint than a moral instruction. Look what's happened to many of the soldiers in Iraq who're highly trained to kill, without the moral component: you have dehumanization on such a scale as Stephen Green who gang-raped and murdered a 14 year old girl and killed her family because according to his own testimony, there was no thrill in just killing people any more.

The moral instructions of the warrior-monk castes in medieval times and in the orient did as much as they could to build in those restraints, but of course sometimes the killer urges were subjugated by saying, ah well, it's OK to kill them cos they're Moslems... oh bugger, perhaps this is the same now, and perhaps this post is taking a disturbingly political angle...!

To the OP: don't be ridiculous, of course not. And welcome to the forum! Of course, in this modern world where everyone's supposed to be personal responsible for their actions nobody teaches morals anymore. Can anyone see the breakdown in logic here?! You're supposed to know what right and wrong is, so nobody teaches you, so of course you don't know...! ... which is why you get a huge breakdown in the church and society, and even the church's moral education has ceased to preach social responsibility outside a very small circle, and now preaches only personal salvation and personal responsibility. I blame the parents.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

No they don't...but many try to teach them side by side....

[sanjuro_ronin]

Re the Samurai:
The higher ups knew that having a bunch of trained killers around with little or nothing to do but get into trouble was not a good thing, so they were smart enought o TRY and instill "morals, ethics and responsiblity" on them, or course they succed and failed all at the same time.
And in the case of the Samurai, one will notice that the morals and such were guided by duty to one's liege.

[Mr Punch]

Re the Samurai:
The higher ups knew that having a bunch of trained killers around with little or nothing to do but get into trouble was not a good thing, so they were smart enought o TRY and instill "morals, ethics and responsiblity" on them, or course they succed and failed all at the same time.
And in the case of the Samurai, one will notice that the morals and such were guided by duty to one's liege.

Didn't I say that?

Ma beetch!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Didn't I say that?

Ma beetch!

Your post was more yin, my had more yang, as such, they balance each other out and make the Tao much more harmonious.

[Mr Punch]

Your post was more yin, my had more yang, as such, they balance each other out and make the Tao much more harmonious.

I see. Obviously as does the fact that yo ma beetch...!

[mantis108]

1) A lot of MA didn't come from Shaolin or the Taoists.

MA like many other knowledge and technology in ancient China would have been state owned. Clans and families are the keepers of these affairs. Most if not all traditional Kung Fu would have something to do with the military and protection of the imperial properties (practically the whole China) and personales. But as the economies changes from agricultural base to a more diversed economy including commercial trade. Other trades such as militia men, teachers, guards, escorts, bandits and entertainers (lowest of the scale). Shaolin monk troops are somewhat militia-esque. They are granted special privilege by the Emperors. Daoist militia, although not a rule, mostly degenerate into cult militia and often become banned or destroyed. So yes, most of the MA didn't come from Shaolin or Wudang.

2) A helluva lot (emphasis on 'hell'! ) of martial arts in the Buddhist and Taoist sects came from gangsters, bandits and murderers. Think about it: in the West we had the same religious laws: asylum. Felons and lowlifes seeking asylum from the authorities were granted clemency by the monasteries, and in return they protected the monasteries and helped keep their martial traditions alive with new ones.

Well, in some way those gangaster, bandits and murderers would still need of "salvation" and we need to understand that some of them were pushed to join the gangs. This is why novels such as "water margin" is popular becames it speaks of the corruption of the government and turns good and ordinary people to rise up against it. Make no mistake, most people know what's right and what's wrong most of the time (I bet even Mr Bush knows he ****s up most of the time) and recgonize there is a higher calling. But not every one could or would make the right choice and/or do the right thing. So...

There is a difference between actually having Buddhist and Daoist philosophies inherit in a Kung Fu system and a system that became "spiritual" because the progenitor of the system became a worshiper or follower of a spiritual discipline. In other words, spiritual by affiliations is quite common. One example is that people somehow come across Yi Jin Jing (and there are plenty 0f versions), which is "believed" to be of Shaolin origin; hence, they find it palatable to call themselves one of Shaolin's own.

3) Again related to the above. Think of the Crusades: a lot of moral instruction was not based on improving people but damage limitation. That's why there are so many ecclesiastical treatises to fighting for the power of god: if you get a group of largely celibate, solely male, 50% or so criminal people in a confined space and teach them fighting you're gonna need to use it. In China it was mainly defending themselves, in the West we could attack the Moslems!

I believe the idle medival knights have to observe something called the Peace of God and the Justice of God? All because they were doing damage to the community (re: economy). So they were reined in by the Bishops and the Barrons through the God route.

These are just a couple of thoughts, not especially backed by any evidence. Feel free to point out flaws in the arguments.

That's a very interesting point. Most of the samurai codes were Confucian, and yes of course were moral codes, but more to the point they were societal codes, enforced by and generated by the mores of the society around them. The written codes that we now know as samurai ethics like bushido and the Hagakure, were all written in peacetime, again as constraints on a bored, powerful, dangerous and often borderline or out-and-out criminal class of unemployed warriors.

Confucianism was more concerned with moral codes and the enforcement of it prior to Song southern dynasty because it has always been the preferred instrutment of the government. But since that time, Confucianism also evolved to personal pursuits of enlightenment thanks to the Neo Confucianism movement started during the Northen Song. They absorded some ideas of both Buddhism and Daoism. Philosophical debates of morality whether it is divine (self imposed) or humanitarian (socially imposed) by Neo Confucians still happening today since that time. Chinese leadship, since Song dynasty, finially woke up to the fact that a smart and strong populace as a whole is better to handle the challenges of truely international or universal level impacts.

So I think the moral codes in all of these societies weren't based on: 'Do this because it makes you good,' just on, 'Don't do this or youll go to hell'. More of a plea for restraint than a moral instruction. Look what's happened to many of the soldiers in Iraq who're highly trained to kill, without the moral component: you have dehumanization on such a scale as Stephen Green who gang-raped and murdered a 14 year old girl and killed her family because according to his own testimony, there was no thrill in just killing people any more.

Moral codes is but an illusion of a temperay peace. It is a slippery slope which Buddhists and Daoists have long recgonized.

The moral instructions of the warrior-monk castes in medieval times and in the orient did as much as they could to build in those restraints, but of course sometimes the killer urges were subjugated by saying, ah well, it's OK to kill them cos they're Moslems... oh bugger, perhaps this is the same now, and perhaps this post is taking a disturbingly political angle...!

Fundamentalist elements in any of the big three religions in the west is basically suffering from a tribal anxiety complex (ie Dominionism). This goes all the way back to the story of Abraham. They all believe they are the elected tribe to carry out their "God's" will. Basically, the world suffers because of a family feud (re.: Ismael-Isaac feud). The worst irony is that it's all because they wanted to control a rock in the middle of desert nowhere. BTW, they certianly provide "God" and his Angels with live reality show entertainment.

To the OP: don't be ridiculous, of course not. And welcome to the forum! Of course, in this modern world where everyone's supposed to be personal responsible for their actions nobody teaches morals anymore. Can anyone see the breakdown in logic here?! You're supposed to know what right and wrong is, so nobody teaches you, so of course you don't know...! ... which is why you get a huge breakdown in the church and society, and even the church's moral education has ceased to preach social responsibility outside a very small circle, and now preaches only personal salvation and personal responsibility. I blame the parents.

This is perhaps the most interesting and important part to discuss. But I am going to have lunch first. So hopefully, we could discuss this later.

Mantis108