Martial Morals

[doug maverick]

even the gu in five deadly venoms were really bad guys. they were all after the money for their own personal use anyway.

[the Preacher]

Qoh 1

I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.

[David Jamieson]

take it outside godboy, this ain't some jesus camp!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Qoh 1

I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.

You say that as if it is a bad thing

[LoneTiger108]

Pretty much every MA school has a code of conduct, many are even written into the grading certificates.
This is a "new invention" of the 20th century.

I think that was what I was referring to as 'Club Conduct'.

The 'Martial Code of Conduct' (Mo Duk) I'm talking of is not a modern invention, as far as I know. It is something that has been in place for a length of time.

On the subject of Morality, I believe the codes speak more of individual 'responsibility' to the arts ancestors and how to 'teach & study' in peace. Obviously this requires a certain disciplined attitude towards others...

[David Jamieson]

we have discussed this before.

essentially, wu de/ mo duk stems from confucian (kung fu tze) principles/ethics.

the shaolin version is similar but has more ch'an(zen) flavour to it as opposed to absolutes with the exception of the absolute "do not kill. for all life is sacred".

[SPJ]

Hi SPJ,

This one for you:

拳理並不等如西方物理。不談心意氣力亦不必多言陰陽剛柔﹐那又何來拳法之可言﹖昊天四府<春>﹑<夏>﹑< 秋>﹑<冬>﹔聖人四府<易>﹑<書>﹑<詩>﹑<春秋>﹔拳中四府<法>﹑<勢>﹑<道>﹑<身>﹐是知 太極一理﹐用廣體微。人為精氣之物﹐其生于天地之間﹐稟其質于地而法于地﹐故剛柔可論﹐本與五行數序無乖﹐ 而秉天之變化行于四時﹐故陰陽可論。老子亦以人法地﹐地法天﹐天法道﹐道法自然。內經以善醫者治本為首要﹐拳術之設亦以治本為先﹐變化氣質為務﹐服氣返還為其手段﹐故拳術轉弱為強之功為本 ﹐開啟聰明為用﹐而搏擊為末技矣﹐今人舍本逐末而以得用世悔敵小道尤沾沾自喜者﹐但以較力量之大小為剛柔之義﹐謂某某拳為剛﹐某某拳為柔﹐遂 謂剛柔相克﹐泥于小道﹐是不明拳術取象配數之理。

所謂世無無根之木﹐無源之流﹐人之所本者一點真元﹐即天元一氣(理氣)﹐數為氣之用﹐就理而言﹐數為十蓋欲 言其全(理學本之)﹐就氣而言﹐數為九蓋言其用(象數本之)。五行數序水火木金土﹐在拳中即順退(陰符)﹑ 逆進(陽火)﹑左顧(三神)﹑右盼(七星)﹑誠中動直(定之謂也)﹐天地位數生成﹐五十有五(註﹕此言數理 ﹐故言其全)﹐言其質具于地﹔然木火金水﹐土王四季言其氣行于天﹐七八九六﹐精氣為物﹐游魂(鬼神為之類) 為變﹐亦是大衍之數(十日十二辰二十八宿)所以變化為其功﹐而
行鬼神(因應天體能量變化)為其用﹐以勢而言則四擊(打﹑踢或點﹑摔﹑拿)以應四時﹐八法(眼﹑身﹑手﹑身 ﹑步﹑精神﹑氣力﹑功) 而應八節﹐十二型(提綱要領口訣功法)為十二度﹔以身而言﹐天有四時﹐人有四肢(耳目手足)﹐天有八節﹐人 有奇經八脈﹐天有十二度﹐人有十二正經﹐寧不知為法天地一氣之變化者﹖天下門派孰多﹐都不離陰陽﹑剛柔﹑虛 實﹑進退之理﹐丹田出入之竅門。愚意以為武學頂峰乃天人合一﹐內聖外王之道﹐真正功夫所在之處(亦是最是迷 人處)﹐搏擊只是入門初
階﹐未能稱得上是踏足武學殿堂。強分內外是未明理為一本而萬殊之道。道大似不肖﹐多言數窮不如 守中。

Mantis108

this is an outstanding post.

[LoneTiger108]

Sorry to disagree here, but Mo Duk comes from Military IMO.

The Military does not study Confucist principles until they return home! Obviously Ch'an versions will have elements of Buddhism too which will vary from Wudang (Taoist) schools also.

What I would like to 'hear' or 'see' is someone present a jpeg or something that highlights these rules or codes of conduct. These principles 'must' be written down, especially the Ch'an versions IMO.

So, please someone show something that we can discuss in depth, if that is the intention of this thread...

[SPJ]

I think that was what I was referring to as 'Club Conduct'.

The 'Martial Code of Conduct' (Mo Duk) I'm talking of is not a modern invention, as far as I know. It is something that has been in place for a length of time.

On the subject of Morality, I believe the codes speak more of individual 'responsibility' to the arts ancestors and how to 'teach & study' in peace. Obviously this requires a certain disciplined attitude towards others...

there is no morality in destruction and taking away lives.

geneva convention after wwi, no poison gas, no chemical weapon, no torturing and fair treatment of prisoner of war???

--

some cultural background.

1. during the spring and autumn and warring periods, there were wars upon wars in China, people were professional soldiers such as Sun Wu or Sun Zi, it is a profession, yes, they were bound by loyalty and being just etc etc. there were certain conduct codes already. bin jia or profession of military was highly looked up to.

2. in song dynasty, since the first emperor of song was from a general, he purposely took away the ranks of the generals that helped him to the throne, so nobody may be risen up to be an emperor just like him. being a fighter or a soldier was looked down upon purposely since then. that was why song was pacifying strong neighbors with golds and concessions. Song was the weakest dynasty in Chinese history as far as dealing with neighboring tribes and kingdoms.

3. civilian secret societies and codes were most prominent in Ming's first emperor Zhu Yuan Zhang. that was how he defeated mongolians.

4. Su lu tang wroted books and introduced philosophies into practice of tai chi, xing yi and ba gua. the practice of MA would be part of character building and understanding of one's health and relation to others and the world.

the fighting people were always bound by certain rules.

good or bad, even robbers from the mountains or robbers on horse, they would have certain rules.

--

passing a school or style, or even just entering dicipleship, the potential students will be evaluated on character first, if worthy, then moving forward, if not, he or she will be dismissed.

--

in short, there were and still are rules, as long as there are more than one people, we have to have some rules to go by or governing--

--

[sanjuro_ronin]

In terms of warfare, "rules" started to be used when the objectives of war started to get destroyed in battle, what good is invading and occupying a country when the people you will tax are dead and their crops destroyed?

Even raping and pilaging becmae "legislated" by superiours, at least the smart ones did.

It had very little to do with morals and ethics and more to do with self interests.

[doug maverick]

Does Martial Arts teach any morality?
or Not?






Eph. 6

Put on the whole armour of God,
that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood,
but against principalities, against powers,
against the rulers of the darkness of this world,
against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God,
that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day,
and having done all, to stand.

Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth,
and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Above all, taking the shield of faith,
wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
And take the helmet of salvation,
and the sword of the Spirit,
which is the word of God:

excellent passage excellent

[David Jamieson]

many of the "heroes" of the old testament were nothing more than mass murderers.

you can butter that and suger it up as much as you like, but i'd dump that old testamnet completely from christianity if it was up to me.

but it's not up to me and so, people will continue to use their religion to prp up their hate and intolerance which in my opinion is the ****hest thing from any sort of morality.

[doug maverick]

doesn;t matter still a good quote.

[David Jamieson]

yes it's a good quote, but it has nothing to do with martial arts. It is analogy.

[LoneTiger108]

there is no morality in destruction and taking away lives...

... or even just entering dicipleship, the potential students will be evaluated on character first, if worthy, then moving forward, if not, he or she will be dismissed.

in short, there were and still are rules, as long as there are more than one people, we have to have some rules to go by or governing

I agree with you here SPJ, and thanks for the history. Again, what I was talking of was the 'codes of conduct' not really the 'morality of fighting or killing'.

Interesting to see peoples views here though, and the obvious religious overtones like 'Put on the whole armour of God' Didn't Jackie Chan do this?