Formless Wing Chun

[k gledhill]

http://home.earthlink.net/%7Ewslnyc/pb.html good article on that subject

[sanjuro_ronin]

You don't need forms if you are gonna train to be a fighter, you do "need" them if you train to be a martial artist.

[NgGung]

Very Well Said! The forms are a text book and allow self discovery of the proper body Mechanic's. Which then translate into a progressive understanding taken into other area's of training!

No form, one will lost the specific Power Generation training which is designed for the style.

Application without the specific power generation training is cutting down the effectiveness or paralized the style.

one cannot act as female character behave and practicing male's action.

One cannot punch as one just punch.. That is the part of the art which is fading in general....


But we think everything is the same. Nope, IMHO, in my understanding it cant be... WCK which punch like boxing is no longer WCK.


peace

[chusauli]

Having learned WCK both ways, I think it really doesn't matter if you have forms. As long as you have the proper mechanics, that already enough. And if you can remember everything and make it yours, that's even better.

In Gu Lao WCK, we have no forms, just mini-sets which are drilled over and over, adding in footwork, shifting, on the Jong, with weapons, in Chi Sao and San Sao. However, memorizing all the points can be troublesome for some.

In the Yip Man and YKS systems, you have forms. Forms are good for memorizing things you might have otherwise forgotten. Sequences are good for drilling and running through a system if you have no partners, nor even a Sifu - as they can help you grow and many hidden teaching reveal themselves throughout the years...

All WCK is good - however it must be applied with at right timing and positioning. It all becomes formless in the end - you never hit anyone within sequence, you apply it in accord with conditions.

If one wants to be good, they should just drill a core handful of moves daily. That is enough - one wins with those as they are the moves that you instinctively after drilling them for so long. What those core moves are would vary from individual to individual.

Best regards,

[sanjuro_ronin]

All WCK is good - however it must be applied with at right timing and positioning. It all becomes formless in the end - you never hit anyone within sequence, you apply it in accord with conditions.

Best WC post I have read in ages it seems.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Why would you even want to do that? The forms are not like most kung Fu forms anyway. They are just a pattern of techniques that can be practiced in precession. They are designed to help one develop these techniques. I really don't know how you would be able to develop your Chi or your technique without the forms. The knives and the pole could be tossed. They would only be for fun anyway. In todays society you would end up in trouble if you went around with a pair of big knives or a stick. You certainly could not justify their use in most cases.
I have watched many people doing these forms, and I have yet to see anyone do them the same way I do them. In fact, I think that most people have no real understanding of what they are actually doing when they perform them. In that case I guess it wouldn't make any difference if you learned them or not.

[Jeff Bussey]

Hi Lee Chiang Po

Why would you even want to do that? The forms are not like most kung Fu forms anyway. They are just a pattern of techniques that can be practiced in precession. They are designed to help one develop these techniques. I really don't know how you would be able to develop your Chi or your technique without the forms. The knives and the pole could be tossed. They would only be for fun anyway. In todays society you would end up in trouble if you went around with a pair of big knives or a stick. You certainly could not justify their use in most cases.
I have watched many people doing these forms, and I have yet to see anyone do them the same way I do them. In fact, I think that most people have no real understanding of what they are actually doing when they perform them. In that case I guess it wouldn't make any difference if you learned them or not.

You can learn and develop your techniques without a form. I can show someone a technique in a mirror and then have them apply it in different senarios. That would develop the technique faster and quicker than by sitting in the forms.

Remember that the forms are just a summary of the whole system, you can teach any technique, concept, theory, principle or energy involved without them.

Now you've said it yourself, you've seen alot of people doing pi$$ poor forms and I'm willing to bet that it's probably their best part of wing chun, otherwise they'd film themselves doing something else. So it's not practicing the forms that will give you good wing chun, you need someone with good explanations, examples and the ability to transfer that to students.

J

[kj]

They are just a pattern of techniques that can be practiced in precession. They are designed to help one develop these techniques.

I agree that they help to develop techniques. To me, however, they serve as more than techniques practiced in precession [sic], and not just or only that.

Regards,
- kj

[tjwingchun]

I have said for many years that there are two main purposes behind the forms.

First, as has already been stated, to be a reminder of the different ways we can move our body and apply energies in various directions, so the student does not forget.

Secondly, as a method by which a student can show the instructor that they have understood what they have been taught and are able to replicate and therefore for the instructor to see that the student has comprehended fully what was being shown.

Without the structure or reminder of what the forms offer it is difficult to remember every important move or concept that is held within the forms, memories tirick things and any promt to help remind you of details of moves/energies/concepts/principles are beneficial.

Why do you think that there are few brilliant boxers that have made the transition to brilliant trainers, could it be that the secret of their success in the ring stayed in the memory and methods of their teacher and though they can apply THEMSELVES they know not have the recall of how to get others gain that same ability or application.

Why do we need a dictionary and thesaurus even when we have agood understanding of English, simple, we cannot remember everything we have learned without prompts or reminders.

Teach your Wing Chun without forms and your students may well be able to reconstruct your understanding of the application of Wing Chun, but after 4 or 5 generations of teaching without forms, like ¨Chinese Whispers¨the foundations will have deviated.

[Jeff Bussey]

Hi tjwingchun

Why do we need a dictionary and thesaurus even when we have agood understanding of English, simple, we cannot remember everything we have learned without prompts or reminders.

Teach your Wing Chun without forms and your students may well be able to reconstruct your understanding of the application of Wing Chun, but after 4 or 5 generations of teaching without forms, like ¨Chinese Whispers¨the foundations will have deviated.

That's right. It could be lost and forgotten and the forms are your summary of the system. Just like you said, your instructor can see what your level of understanding is when he watches your form.

But it was asked if you can teach wing chun without the forms, and the answer in my mind is yes.

J

[tjwingchun]

Hi tjwingchun


That's right. It could be lost and forgotten and the forms are your summary of the system. Just like you said, your instructor can see what your level of understanding is when he watches your form.

But it was asked if you can teach wing chun without the forms, and the answer in my mind is yes.

J

I agree with you though there is a BIG BUT, about 18 years ago Yip Chun also thought the same and tried teaching that way, by coincidence one of my students who had his own school had the same idea at the same time, both came to the same understanding after about one year, that the students without form lacked the development of students who had forms and returned to using forms as a method of teaching.

If you wish a student to merely to be a clone of your methods then give them only the knowledge that makes you successful, but if you wish them to follow your path of understanding then let them be aware of the steps you took.

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey tjwingchun

I agree with you though there is a BIG BUT, about 18 years ago Yip Chun also thought the same and tried teaching that way, by coincidence one of my students who had his own school had the same idea at the same time, both came to the same understanding after about one year, that the students without form lacked the development of students who had forms and returned to using forms as a method of teaching.

If you wish a student to merely to be a clone of your methods then give them only the knowledge that makes you successful, but if you wish them to follow your path of understanding then let them be aware of the steps you took.

I'm not so sure. I think there is more of a clone effect from people who do more forms. It's not until you start to apply it that you start to come into your own and know what works and doesn't.

If you take boxing again as an example. there are a lot of different boxers that come from the same trainer and they don't learn forms.

J

[tjwingchun]

Hey tjwingchun


I'm not so sure. I think there is more of a clone effect from people who do more forms. It's not until you start to apply it that you start to come into your own and know what works and doesn't.

If you take boxing again as an example. there are a lot of different boxers that come from the same trainer and they don't learn forms.

J

What is taught in the early stages of boxing, theory or slugging it out in the ring?

Good teachers teach the individual, forms just remain a reminder of technique not methods carved in stone.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Forms are ok for group environements, hence they became the norm when MA became more commercialized.
In small groups and 1-on-1's forms are hardly needed, though they can still serve a useful function.

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey tjwingchun

What is taught in the early stages of boxing, theory or slugging it out in the ring?

Good teachers teach the individual, forms just remain a reminder of technique not methods carved in stone.

The early stages of boxing are learning punches, stance, movement with stance, defense, partner drills and a ton of conditioning.

The theory that they teach is like what we hear in wing chun like don't chase hands cause you'll get hit, keep your hands up (earmuffs) or you'll get hit, fill in the blank cause you'll get hit. (you get the point)

You actually don't start sparring (in a good club) until the trainer feels that you're ready.

You could teach wing chun the same way.

J